Cop Indicted For Murder

[Shadowy Man]

The driver's "mistake" was not realizing that anything short of subservience to a police officer is likely to get him killed, regardless of the severity of the crime he may have committed or suspected to have committed. Given the current climate between the black community and police officers in this country it was clearly negligent on his part not to have known this.

The police do not have the "right" to create this so called "climate." The cop broke the law. There are laws regarding when and how an officer can use deadly force. He went over the line and his crime is MURDER.

I'm not disagreeing with you. My 'snark' smiley is absent. Clearly there is a police officer problem in this country, even if the actual number of bad officers is small.

I have stated in the past on this forum my opinion on what the threshold should be for when an officer is allowed to use deadly force and I was told that I was completely unreasonable and no one would become police officers if my standard were in place.

 

[atrib]

I think Derec does this because he wants to draw our attention away from the actions of the police officer (or the wannabe police officer in the Martin killing). Blame the victim and avoid placing any responsibility on the cop. He doesn't appear to understand that the police should not be in the business of killing people over traffic offenses (or for being black and therefore looking suspicious by default).

No, I am not trying to "avoid placing any responsibility on the cop". You are projecting because you are trying to avoid placing any responsibility on DuBose, claiming that he was only "driving while black".

Should trying to run away from the police be an offense punishable by summary execution? Given the history of black people getting killed by the police across the country for seemingly minor offenses, it would appear to be a natural response to try and run away to avoid becoming a similar statistic. I can't blame that guy for trying to get away from a dangerous cop with a gun, and a willingness to use said gun.

The officer's "mistake" cost someone his life. Pretty big fucking "mistake" I think. Trying to run away from a homicidal cop seems to pale considerably in comparison. Not in the same fucking league at all. The cop killed a human being, for fuck's sake!

 

[arkirk]

The police do not have the "right" to create this so called "climate." The cop broke the law. There are laws regarding when and how an officer can use deadly force. He went over the line and his crime is MURDER.

I'm not disagreeing with you. My 'snark' smiley is absent. Clearly there is a police officer problem in this country, even if the actual number of bad officers is small.

I have stated in the past on this forum my opinion on what the threshold should be for when an officer is allowed to use deadly force and I was told that I was completely unreasonable and no one would become police officers if my standard were in place.

A lot of jobs are hard. Working people have to meet the standards of employment or get fired. There is no reason why a cop should be writing the rules on this issue. There is no reason why we need to tolerate this. If you are black, you end up having no place to turn when when your safety is threatened. These cops need a very short leash indeed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

- I would say about the only way the shooting could be justified is if the cop saw Dubose move his hands in such a way that he could have retrieved a weapon himself. He did not do himself any favors by lying about being dragged by the vehicle though, in resemblance to another case in Cinncinati from 15 years ago where both the cop and the 12 year old perp died.
- I think voluntary manslaughter is a more appropriate charge than murder
- With DA's statements it is almost certain now that the county will pay out many millions to Dubose's kin. Of course, once it gets distributed to all his children and baby mamas it might not be so much per capita. Currently they estimate he has 13-20 children but expect more to come out of the woodwork now.

I can see a different scenario that makes it a justified shoot and only a slight error in the cop's reporting:

Look at the last clear action the cop takes before things go to hell: He's reaching into the car, I think for the keys. If his hand became somehow restrained in the process (grabbed or caught in the steering wheel) and the guy punches the gas (which certainly happened at some point, but whether it was before or after shooting I can't tell from the video) a serious threat of dragging exists to which the cop would be justified in shooting in self defense.

I think this is just the DA pandering to popular opinion. It's usually "be tough on crime"--resulting in bogus convictions of those who didn't do wrong (think of the Duke 8 for an attempt that got derailed so we saw what happened) but these days it seems to be "be tough on cops".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why is it hard for police officers to comprehend that pulling a person’s car door open feels like a threatening gesture to many people? Is that alien to their minds, or do they just not care?

Here’s one man that’s dead, and the other charged with his murder because he didn’t comprehend or didn’t care how threatening that feels.

ETA: Well, didn’t understand or care… AND had a gun needlessly in hand and ready to just start blasting away in fright.

So what if it feels threatening?

This guy was clearly going to jail (suspended license, almost certainly DUI)--of course he feels threatened by the cop that's going to bust him. That's a legal threat, though, to which he has no right of self defense. He resists, force is going to be used, too bad.

As for a gun in hand--he clearly did not have his gun in hand until whatever happened when the video becomes too jerky to resolve. (I played it at 30:1--the relevant frames are motion-blurred. Maybe a skilled photointerpreter can figure out what's going on, I sure can't.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I must have missed that part. I must admit it's a good excuse.


Nobody is "insisting". I said "likely" due to his behavior, not race.

Yeah. Driving while black. That's a behavior, right?

The stop was for no front plate.

The guy had a suspended license.

The guy gave the cop a bottle of booze when asked for a license--I think this means it's very likely he was DUI.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Driving with driver's licence suspended indefinitely and without front license plate.
But no, playing the race card is good too.

OF course the police officer who executed him KNEW that he was driving with a suspended license which is why he pulled him over. Of course.

The race card was on the table from the beginning of that traffic stop. As well as your first post. Thanks for playing.

Cops tend to stop for equipment violations because they often find other problems when they do so.

 

[laughing dog]

- I would say about the only way the shooting could be justified is if the cop saw Dubose move his hands in such a way that he could have retrieved a weapon himself. He did not do himself any favors by lying about being dragged by the vehicle though, in resemblance to another case in Cinncinati from 15 years ago where both the cop and the 12 year old perp died.
- I think voluntary manslaughter is a more appropriate charge than murder
- With DA's statements it is almost certain now that the county will pay out many millions to Dubose's kin. Of course, once it gets distributed to all his children and baby mamas it might not be so much per capita. Currently they estimate he has 13-20 children but expect more to come out of the woodwork now.

I can see a different scenario that makes it a justified shoot and only a slight error in the cop's reporting:

Look at the last clear action the cop takes before things go to hell: He's reaching into the car, I think for the keys. If his hand became somehow restrained in the process (grabbed or caught in the steering wheel) and the guy punches the gas (which certainly happened at some point, but whether it was before or after shooting I can't tell from the video) a serious threat of dragging exists to which the cop would be justified in shooting in self defense.

You really can just make anything up to excuse a police shooting of a black man. Because, after all, a police officer who shoots an unarmed suspect is going to turn in a report that makes him/her look bad.

 

[RavenSky]

Instead, he got himself killed.

No, HE did not get HIMSELF killed.

The COP killed him.

 

[abaddon]

Why is it hard for police officers to comprehend that pulling a person’s car door open feels like a threatening gesture to many people? Is that alien to their minds, or do they just not care?

Here’s one man that’s dead, and the other charged with his murder because he didn’t comprehend or didn’t care how threatening that feels.

ETA: Well, didn’t understand or care… AND had a gun needlessly in hand and ready to just start blasting away in fright.

So what if it feels threatening?

The police officer’s charged with murder for clumsily surprising the man into an action he might not have taken if the officer had been less clumsy, which escalated the situation. That’s so what. What I wrote isn’t a concern for the driver's feelings; it’s entirely in regards to how skillfully officers handle themselves. If they don’t care about how people react to things then they’re not able to interact skillfully. So if they don’t care about what may be happening in the other person's mind then it’s a strong indication of incompetence where they cannot control situations and resolve them as peaceably as possible with minimal danger to all.

Citizens are advised to not make sudden gestures that might freak the officer out, and other advice, when pulled over. The principle works the other way too.

 

[laughing dog]

So what if it feels threatening?

I take it you will no longer use the "feel threatened" argument for the shootings of unarmed suspects.

 

[atrib]

With DA's statements it is almost certain now that the county will pay out many millions to Dubose's kin. Of course, once it gets distributed to all his children and baby mamas it might not be so much per capita. Currently they estimate he has 13-20 children but expect more to come out of the woodwork now.

Are you suggesting that Dubose does not deserve the right to lawful due process because he is not a saint? Or that the family of Dubose should not have the right to be compensated by the government for his unlawful death at the hands of a rogue cop (if a court finds that to be appropriate) because Dubose was apparently not a saint? What was your motive in bringing this up?

I continue to be amazed at the lack of empathy and humanity in your posts. You get outraged because Greenpeace protesters tried to slow down a ship searching for oil, but you appear to have only disdain for a human being that was murdered by a rogue police officer, or his family.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I can see a different scenario that makes it a justified shoot and only a slight error in the cop's reporting:

Look at the last clear action the cop takes before things go to hell: He's reaching into the car, I think for the keys. If his hand became somehow restrained in the process (grabbed or caught in the steering wheel) and the guy punches the gas (which certainly happened at some point, but whether it was before or after shooting I can't tell from the video) a serious threat of dragging exists to which the cop would be justified in shooting in self defense.

You really can just make anything up to excuse a police shooting of a black man. Because, after all, a police officer who shoots an unarmed suspect is going to turn in a report that makes him/her look bad.

You're not even trying to address the scenario--because you know I'm right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So what if it feels threatening?

The police officer’s charged with murder for clumsily surprising the man into an action he might not have taken if the officer had been less clumsy, which escalated the situation. That’s so what. What I wrote isn’t a concern for the driver's feelings; it’s entirely in regards to how skillfully officers handle themselves. If they don’t care about how people react to things then they’re not able to interact skillfully. So if they don’t care about what may be happening in the other person's mind then it’s a strong indication of incompetence where they cannot control situations and resolve them as peaceably as possible with minimal danger to all.

Citizens are advised to not make sudden gestures that might freak the officer out, and other advice, when pulled over. The principle works the other way too.

Clumsily? I think it was pretty obvious the guy was trying to run. While I can see reasons to leave the engine on at a traffic stop (not that I think a cop would be one bit happy with that--and he didn't say anything about it so we can figure the engine probably wasn't on) there's absolutely no reason for the car to be in gear other than if the guy is trying to rabbit. That's not a case of clumsy.

- - - Updated - - -

So what if it feels threatening?

I take it you will no longer use the "feel threatened" argument for the shootings of unarmed suspects.

You apparently can't tell the difference between the threat posed by the law and the threat posed by a criminal.

 

[abaddon]

The police officer’s charged with murder for clumsily surprising the man into an action he might not have taken if the officer had been less clumsy, which escalated the situation. That’s so what. What I wrote isn’t a concern for the driver's feelings; it’s entirely in regards to how skillfully officers handle themselves. If they don’t care about how people react to things then they’re not able to interact skillfully. So if they don’t care about what may be happening in the other person's mind then it’s a strong indication of incompetence where they cannot control situations and resolve them as peaceably as possible with minimal danger to all.

Citizens are advised to not make sudden gestures that might freak the officer out, and other advice, when pulled over. The principle works the other way too.

Clumsily? I think it was pretty obvious the guy was trying to run. While I can see reasons to leave the engine on at a traffic stop (not that I think a cop would be one bit happy with that--and he didn't say anything about it so we can figure the engine probably wasn't on) there's absolutely no reason for the car to be in gear other than if the guy is trying to rabbit. That's not a case of clumsy.

You’re just much too ignorant about what’s on that video, even if you did watch it. Dubose's hand was resting on top the steering wheel just as it had been whenever he wasn't fishing around for things, and he was looking out across the street as usual whenever he wasn't fishing around for things, and then he moved to turn the ignition only after he was suddenly surprised by the door getting opened. Since the idiot pig did it while Dubose was looking away, the idiot pig startled the man. Dubose made a mistake trying to run, no doubt. But the idiot pig escalated the situation and then killed the man for no good reason because he's an idiot pig.

 

[laughing dog]

You apparently can't tell the difference between the threat posed by the law and the threat posed by a criminal.

In this case, it is obvious that threat posed by the law was more deadly than the threat posed by the civilian. Perhaps in your kneejerk rush to defend yet another killing of a black man by a police officer, you did not notice that.

 

[laughing dog]

You really can just make anything up to excuse a police shooting of a black man. Because, after all, a police officer who shoots an unarmed suspect is going to turn in a report that makes him/her look bad.

You're not even trying to address the scenario--because you know I'm right.

You were not present as a witness. You admitted that you could not see everything in the video. And you are asserting that this police officer is not smart or alert enough or clever enough to tell a story that would but him in the clear.

Those 3 elements allow me to know that you are making stuff up to construct yet another bullshit defense for a police officer killing an unarmed black man.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Clumsily? I think it was pretty obvious the guy was trying to run. While I can see reasons to leave the engine on at a traffic stop (not that I think a cop would be one bit happy with that--and he didn't say anything about it so we can figure the engine probably wasn't on) there's absolutely no reason for the car to be in gear other than if the guy is trying to rabbit. That's not a case of clumsy.

You’re just much too ignorant about what’s on that video, even if you did watch it. Dubose's hand was resting on top the steering wheel just as it had been whenever he wasn't fishing around for things, and he was looking out across the street as usual whenever he wasn't fishing around for things, and then he moved to turn the ignition only after he was suddenly surprised by the door getting opened. Since the idiot pig did it while Dubose was looking away, the idiot pig startled the man. Dubose made a mistake trying to run, no doubt. But the idiot pig escalated the situation and then killed the man for no good reason because he's an idiot pig.

You're blaming the cop for the stupidity of the dead guy.

The cop going for the door showed the guy that he wasn't going to talk his way out of it, he switched to running. The cop went for the keys--if he somehow got caught while doing that it's a justified shoot. It doesn't matter that the guy didn't intend to harm the cop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're not even trying to address the scenario--because you know I'm right.

You were not present as a witness. You admitted that you could not see everything in the video. And you are asserting that this police officer is not smart or alert enough or clever enough to tell a story that would but him in the clear.

Those 3 elements allow me to know that you are making stuff up to construct yet another bullshit defense for a police officer killing an unarmed black man.

The car was on and in gear as given by the fact that it moved--this could only happen if the driver was going to rabbit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You were not present as a witness. You admitted that you could not see everything in the video. And you are asserting that this police officer is not smart or alert enough or clever enough to tell a story that would but him in the clear.

Those 3 elements allow me to know that you are making stuff up to construct yet another bullshit defense for a police officer killing an unarmed black man.

The car was on and in gear as given by the fact that it moved--this could only happen if the driver was going to rabbit.

And today on Police Apologism Today, we see an example of a police apologist making a case that the Police Officer himself isn't making. In fact, when you watch the body cam video, you'll see how the Officer himself adapts his story. But lets not let the Police Officer himself make his own case, let's have a Police Apologist do so.