Greece, what the fuck?

[coloradoatheist]

tip: we are not talking about national economics here. Germany not equal Greece.

The discussion is all over the place but part of the discussion is the best way to help a nation with a depressed economy.

People are right when they say just throwing money at the problem is not a solution.

But there are solutions. They do require money, but money used to build up the Greek economy, Keynesian spending. And tax increases on the wealthy.

None of this is even on the table at this point.

But insanity in human affairs is the norm.

and one of the ways to help a heroin addict is to give them me heroin, but it's not always the best long term solution. That's the problem with the spending like they did with the Olympics, is that you have to keep doing it in many cases. So what projects does Greece have that just isn't filling a hole and redigging it?

 

[untermensche]

The discussion is all over the place but part of the discussion is the best way to help a nation with a depressed economy.

People are right when they say just throwing money at the problem is not a solution.

But there are solutions. They do require money, but money used to build up the Greek economy, Keynesian spending. And tax increases on the wealthy.

None of this is even on the table at this point.

But insanity in human affairs is the norm.

and one of the ways to help a heroin addict is to give them me heroin, but it's not always the best long term solution. That's the problem with the spending like they did with the Olympics, is that you have to keep doing it in many cases. So what projects does Greece have that just isn't filling a hole and redigging it?

Keynesian policies on not even on the table.

That is why Greece is sliding further and further into the abyss.

 

[coloradoatheist]

and one of the ways to help a heroin addict is to give them me heroin, but it's not always the best long term solution. That's the problem with the spending like they did with the Olympics, is that you have to keep doing it in many cases. So what projects does Greece have that just isn't filling a hole and redigging it?

Keynesian policies on not even on the table.

That is why Greece is sliding further and further into the abyss.

and one of the problems we have with economics is that sometimes it takes a long time to adjust. Giving heroine to an addict solves the problems of having to go through withdrawl..

 

[untermensche]

Keynesian policies on not even on the table.

That is why Greece is sliding further and further into the abyss.

and one of the problems we have with economics is that sometimes it takes a long time to adjust. Giving heroine to an addict solves the problems of having to go through withdrawl..

You are not serious.

The Greek people did not incur these debts.

Their awful so-called leaders did.

Punishing the Greeks though seems to make some ecstatic. They are sadistic apes. Something pretty common in this world.

There are ways to help the Greek economy. But unfortunately anti-Keynesian policies are the only policies the sadists want to implement. They seem to enjoy making a bad situation worse.

 

[ksen]

That's the problem with the spending like they did with the Olympics, is that you have to keep doing it in many cases. So what projects does Greece have that just isn't filling a hole and redigging it?

I guess facts don't matter that much for you since I've posted data twice now that shows greece's gdp growth accelerated during the olympics run up while their debt/gdp ratio was going down.

Ignore, repeat, and come up with another red herring is typical posting behavior.

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There is no debate that Greek GDP was growing up until the financial crisis.

A big part of why it was growing because they were borrowing buttfucktons of foreign money and pumping it out through the ass of their corrupt government and government spending counts as GDP.

Then as the economy skidded they kept on borrowing for a while but the keynesy-gods did not answer their prayers and offerings of more debt financed spending and the economy continued to tank.

Then the long run Keynes always ignored and dismissed kicked in quicker than expected and people stopped lending them money.

Chart that shows all this:

https://cloud.highcharts.com/show/adakiq

Your charts also support everything I've posted so far.

Thanks buddy!

 

[Jayjay]

and one of the problems we have with economics is that sometimes it takes a long time to adjust. Giving heroine to an addict solves the problems of having to go through withdrawl..

You are not serious.

The Greek people did not incur these debts.

Their awful so-called leaders did.

Punishing the Greeks though seems to make some ecstatic. They are sadistic apes. Something pretty common in this world.

There are ways to help the Greek economy. But unfortunately anti-Keynesian policies are the only policies the sadists want to implement. They seem to enjoy making a bad situation worse.

Unfortunately, there is no way to deal directly with the Greek people. Only way is through the Greek government.

 

[ksen]

Keynesian policies on not even on the table.

That is why Greece is sliding further and further into the abyss.

and one of the problems we have with economics is that sometimes it takes a long time to adjust. Giving heroine to an addict solves the problems of having to go through withdrawl..

I don't know of too many economies that do better with less money circulating through them, do you?

 

[dismal]

,

and one of the problems we have with economics is that sometimes it takes a long time to adjust. Giving heroine to an addict solves the problems of having to go through withdrawl..

I don't know of too many economies that do better with less money circulating through them, do you?

So you're saying it would be bad and non Keynesian for the other economies of Europe to send money to Greece? They agree. Thread over.

 

[barbos]

If Keynes was alive he would have been against applying his theories to Greece.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No, there is debate about the affect the Olympics had on the Greek economy. It started with Greece cooking the books to get into the EU along with the Olympics followed by the financial crisis.

There is no debate that Greek GDP was growing up until the financial crisis.

So? The point of Kenseyan spending is to grow the economy enough to pay off the debt you accumulate doing it. Greece did nothing of the kind.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Keynesian policies on not even on the table.

That is why Greece is sliding further and further into the abyss.

and one of the problems we have with economics is that sometimes it takes a long time to adjust. Giving heroine to an addict solves the problems of having to go through withdrawl..

Who, Aphrodite? Or Hera?

- - - Updated - - -

and one of the problems we have with economics is that sometimes it takes a long time to adjust. Giving heroine to an addict solves the problems of having to go through withdrawl..

You are not serious.

The Greek people did not incur these debts.

The Greek people voted for the governments that provided the social spending.

Their awful so-called leaders did.

Punishing the Greeks though seems to make some ecstatic. They are sadistic apes. Something pretty common in this world.

There are ways to help the Greek economy. But unfortunately anti-Keynesian policies are the only policies the sadists want to implement. They seem to enjoy making a bad situation worse.

We just had a referendum that confirmed popular support for the reckless spending.

 

[tupac chopra]

This imaginary hobgoblin is not a particularly fearful one.

Neither Russia nor China have shown great interest in paying billions of Euros to the ECB for the privilege of funding of Greece's future budget deficits.

There's a vague possibility that Putin may help Greece somewhat in exchange for bases in, say, Cyprus, Crete or mainland Greece, thus ensuring continued Ruskie presence in the Eastern Med in case the Syrian port they have now goes thje way of Mosul and Aleppo??

OOOps I see they have already evacuated Tartus. All the more reason for other base or bases in that region.

I'm sure Washington would not object

Might be via the new development bank too.
Russia’s Deputy Finance Minister says Greece can easily receive financing from BRICS



http://tass.ru/en/world/806684

 

[Togo]

We just had a referendum that confirmed popular support for the reckless spending.

Can I have a source on reckless spending by the present government please?

 

[Axulus]

We just had a referendum that confirmed popular support for the reckless spending.

Can I have a source on reckless spending by the present government please?

Subsidy on excise tax on diesel gasoline for farmers, harmful to the environment as well as being reckless. There are plenty of other farm subsidies and wasteful spending for this sector.

2.3% of GDP spent on military/defense, almost twice the amount as a percent of GDP basis as Germany.

Way too early retirement still allowed - 75% of Greeks retire by age 61 and are able to collect state pension

Partly due to the retirement age, the pension amounts are still way too high, costing ~17% of GDP, one of the highest rates in the entire European Union.

Government ownership of many kinds of assets that other countries across the EU have privatized (regional airports and ports). Privatization would raise additional funds for other needs.

Still lots of corruption/fraud with the welfare system, with benefits going to people who don't qualify

http://europa.eu/rapid/attachment/IP-15-5270/en/List of prior actions - version of 26 June 20 00.pdf

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/03/r...simple-reasons-greece-is-imploding-right-now/

 

[Togo]

Can I have a source on reckless spending by the present government please?

Subsidy on excise tax on diesel gasoline for farmers, harmful to the environment as well as being reckless. There are plenty of other farm subsidies and wasteful spending for this sector.

Is the same policy in the UK, Germany, and the US, equally reckless? (cf 'Red' diesel). If they don't have the same subsidy as the rest of the EU, wouldn't that put their farmers out of business?

[2.3% of GDP spent on military/defense, almost twice the amount as a percent of GDP basis as Germany.

But the same as many other developed countries, such as France:

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator...api_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=asc

Note also that Greece is presently engaged in a military stand-off with Turkey.

Way too early retirement still allowed - 75% of Greeks retire by age 61 and are able to collect state pension.
...
Partly due to the retirement age, the pension amounts are still way too high, costing ~17% of GDP, one of the highest rates in the entire European Union.

Depending on their employment, yes. For manual labours, extending the retirement age may not be feasible. The PM pointed out that pensioners have already had their pensions reduced 5 times in the last few years. Refusing to lower them still further at this stage can hardly be described as reckless. And you're measuring off GDP, which has recently shrunk dramatically. The absolute rate is not particularly high.

Government ownership of many kinds of assets that other countries across the EU have privatized (regional airports and ports). Privatization would raise additional funds for other needs.

As a short term fix, that would help. Which is why they have been privatising public assets, such as the port of Patreas. Not as fast as the EU would like, but not selling fast enough doesn't really strike me as 'reckless spending'.

Still lots of corruption/fraud with the welfare system, with benefits going to people who don't qualify

Not really. The problem is more in the tax system, not the welfare system, as the document you cited acknowledges. It would take money now to sort out, and the benefits may appear later on down the line. Again, not reckless spending.

I note that both the links you gave actually agree with what I've said. Despite the Dailycaller's headlines, most of the points it makes are based on seeing the effects of measures the Greek government have already put in place.

So, again, where is this reckless spending? Or is Greece fundamentally doing all the right things, but struggling under the strain of a debt that's simply too large to immediately pay?

 

[untermensche]

If Keynes was alive he would have been against applying his theories to Greece.

Why is that?

Only economists on the right have abandoned Keynes.

You know, trickle-down economists that have stopped saying trickle-down because so little does. But they still have the exact same economic policies as they had when they used to use the words. It is basically economics of and for the rich.

 

[untermensche]

The Greek people voted for the governments that provided the social spending.

That is what I said. The Greek people did not incur these debts. Their awful so-called representatives did. And these representatives did not represent the interests of the Greek people just as many so-called leaders once in office fail to do so.

But people certainly are salivating at the prospect of extreme hardship in Greece. That sadistic strain of ape that is common place, especially in the US on the right.

We just had a referendum that confirmed popular support for the reckless spending.

The referendum had nothing to do with reckless spending. The Greeks have done everything asked over the last few years and have watched their GDP decline by 25%. Can you fathom that number?

They voted to end the economic warfare being waged against their nation.

 

[dismal]

The referendum had nothing to do with reckless spending. The Greeks have done everything asked over the last few years and have watched their GDP decline by 25%. Can you fathom that number?

Their GDP was inflated by an unsustainable borrowing binge. So yeah, that's what happens when the binge stops.

They voted to end the economic warfare being waged against their nation.

They voted to try to sustain the unsustainable borrowing-now-turned-charity binge. But the mistake they made was their vote is not binding on lenders in other countries.

You and your family could vote for the Germans to send you 1000 bratwursts and a Mercedes-Benz but it's not binding on the Germans.

 

[Horatio Parker]

They voted to try to sustain the unsustainable borrowing-now-turned-charity binge. But the mistake they made was their vote is not binding on lenders in other countries.

You and your family could vote for the Germans to send you 1000 bratwursts and a Mercedes-Benz but it's not binding on the Germans.

The referendum proved to Europe and the Troika that Syriza represented the will of the Greek people.

 

[dismal]

They voted to try to sustain the unsustainable borrowing-now-turned-charity binge. But the mistake they made was their vote is not binding on lenders in other countries.

You and your family could vote for the Germans to send you 1000 bratwursts and a Mercedes-Benz but it's not binding on the Germans.

The referendum proved to Europe and the Troika that Syriza represented the will of the Greek people.

So-the-fuck what? The German leaders are there to represent the German people. The Lithuanian leaders are there to represent the Lithuanian people.

What is it about the fact that Greece is asking foreign countries for money that is so difficult to comprehend?