Greece, what the fuck?

[Nice Squirrel]

And what did he say?

I don't know. I am asking you.

The answer would be...

I did not ask you about the stadium or the Olympics. I asked about debt structure and foreign obligations.

 

[ksen]

The answer would be yes, that the stimulus created by both the projects to build the infrastructure for the games along with the spending that came to Greece should have been enough to create sustainability. So the Olympics in Greece would be a failed Keynesian policy.

The Olympics was not a failed Keynesian policy.

It was a successful policy and the Greek economy was growing nicely.

Then the financial crisis hit.

Which you keep ignoring.

 

[coloradoatheist]

And what did he say?

I don't know. I am asking you.

The answer would be...

I did not ask you about the stadium or the Olympics. I asked about debt structure and foreign obligations.

I am curious where Keynes had a formula for what level of debt was too much for a country.

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The answer would be yes, that the stimulus created by both the projects to build the infrastructure for the games along with the spending that came to Greece should have been enough to create sustainability. So the Olympics in Greece would be a failed Keynesian policy.

The Olympics was not a failed Keynesian policy.

It was a successful policy and the Greek economy was growing nicely.

Then the financial crisis hit.

Which you keep ignoring.

And the other countries in the EU were also hit by the financial crisis but didn't fail like Greece. So what was the difference between Germany and Greece?

 

[laughing dog]

And what did he say?

I don't know. I am asking you.

The answer would be...

I did not ask you about the stadium or the Olympics. I asked about debt structure and foreign obligations.

I am curious where Keynes had a formula for what level of debt was too much for a country.

Keynes tended to avoid formulas. But you can read his criticisms of the Treaty of Versailles which saddled Germany with debt and very little ways to pay it. I think it is safe to say that the EU insistence on austerity to get more loans and to repay debt would not have met with Keynes' approval.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And what did he say?

I don't know. I am asking you.

The answer would be...

I did not ask you about the stadium or the Olympics. I asked about debt structure and foreign obligations.

I am curious where Keynes had a formula for what level of debt was too much for a country.

So am I. I just figured you knew what you were talking about when you made your initial statement about failed Keynesian policy.

 

[DrZoidberg]

....History has shown that most Keynsian market stimuluses have been a failure....

What history?

Give me an example where explicit Keynesian policies failed.

Brazil the most famous one, but also Spain in the 80´ies. Egypt and a bunch of African countries in the 70´ies. There´s loads of examples. But even within USA. The New Deal is a famous successful example. But there was plenty Keynsian stimulus within the New Deal that was a dismal failure. Japan tried market stimulus in the 90´ies... went to shit. Even though Japanese Keynsian policies had been successful in the 50´ies and 60´ies. The problem with Keynsian stimuluses that fail are that they take place in an economy that already is in debt. So it acts to compound the problem.

What is clearly a failure is "austerity".

Sweden in the 90´ies. Exactly what we needed. All the East Bloc countries after democratization. Chile in the 70´ies and 80´ies. I´m no fan of Pinochett, but he did have a knack for economic policy. There´s plenty of examples of it failing to. Britain in the 80´ies for example.

The message here is that there´s no one size fits all solution. Sometimes spending is the correct solution, sometimes austerity. It depends on the country, the state of it´s civic institutions, level of corruption. I´m afraid that austerity is the only thing that will work in Greece right now.

What is clearly a failure are the economic policies of the right we have been following for the most part since the Reagan administration.

A failure in the sense that they make most people poorer.

A success in that they make a few richer.

You´ll have no argument there. But the American problem is that your checkbook isn´t balanced. It´s not so much a question of austerity vs stimulus. It´s more a question of you stop buying shit you can´t afford and living on credit. The exact same problem behaviour Greece had before the crisis they are in now. Worth thinking about for USA! Follow Chinas example... just some friendly advice.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

What history?

Give me an example where explicit Keynesian policies failed.

Brazil the most famous one, but also Spain in the 80´ies. Egypt and a bunch of African countries in the 70´ies. There´s loads of examples. But even within USA. The New Deal is a famous successful example. But there was plenty Keynsian stimulus within the New Deal that was a dismal failure. Japan tried market stimulus in the 90´ies... went to shit. Even though Japanese Keynsian policies had been successful in the 50´ies and 60´ies. The problem with Keynsian stimuluses that fail are that they take place in an economy that already is in debt. So it acts to compound the problem.

Now I heard that the rates they borrow at contribute significantly to the success of policies. I remember that the banks here were having a field day collecting interest on Brazil's debt in the late 1980s.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Recall the current dispute is over whether Greece continues with fauxsterity or goes back to big budget blowouts. It's been in all the headlines. It's going to take new money to fund the fauxsterity, since there is no surplus that actually shows up as cash, and even more new money to fund the return to big budget blowouts.

Greece is being destroyed by anti-Keynesian idiots who don't have a clue how to turn around a failing economy.

It needs massive Keynesian spending after years of "austerity".

It is situation created by all involved but we are talking about millions of lives, not garbage.

Some care more about their anti-Keynesian economic delusions than these people.

If that's what's needed then let them borrow from Greeks. Nobody else is interested in lending anymore. Buy Greek Economy Bonds Now!!

However, the fundamental problem isn't the current state of the Greek economy. That's simply a symptom of the fact that they were running their economy on borrowed money and cooked books for ages. They pleaded for help and then proceeded to misuse that help.

 

[ksen]

And the other countries in the EU were also hit by the financial crisis but didn't fail like Greece. So what was the difference between Germany and Greece?

So you're admitting that your dumb Olympics thing was wrong?

 

[untermensche]

I am curious where Keynes had a formula for what level of debt was too much for a country.

I bet you are since you don't have a clue what policies he proposed to help depressed economies.

Today you can read people like Krugman and Stiglitz, Nobel prize winners, for a better understanding of modern Keynesian thinking.

 

[coloradoatheist]

And the other countries in the EU were also hit by the financial crisis but didn't fail like Greece. So what was the difference between Germany and Greece?

So you're admitting that your dumb Olympics thing was wrong?

No, there is debate about the affect the Olympics had on the Greek economy. It started with Greece cooking the books to get into the EU along with the Olympics followed by the financial crisis.

 

[ksen]

So you're admitting that your dumb Olympics thing was wrong?

No, there is debate about the affect the Olympics had on the Greek economy. It started with Greece cooking the books to get into the EU along with the Olympics followed by the financial crisis.

There is no debate that Greek GDP was growing up until the financial crisis.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I am curious where Keynes had a formula for what level of debt was too much for a country.

I bet you are since you don't have a clue what policies he proposed to help depressed economies.

Today you can read people like Krugman and Stiglitz, Nobel prize winners, for a better understanding of modern Keynesian thinking.

I don't think he detailed it enough at the time to and fished out his details enough. He felt that government needed to pick up spending during economic downturns. However as we've found at different areas, the specifics are more important. And we know with Krugman there is no change that government spending can fail. If you spend a trillion and it doesn't work, it meant you needed to spend 2 trillion and if that doesn't work, 4.

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No, there is debate about the affect the Olympics had on the Greek economy. It started with Greece cooking the books to get into the EU along with the Olympics followed by the financial crisis.

There is no debate that Greek GDP was growing up until the financial crisis.

No, it was the percentage of debt compared to the GDP and that kept growing and eventually they couldn't pay back what they owed. The question for any government is when the burden becomes too much.

 

[dismal]

I am curious where Keynes had a formula for what level of debt was too much for a country.

I bet you are since you don't have a clue what policies he proposed to help depressed economies.

Today you can read people like Krugman and Stiglitz, Nobel prize winners, for a better understanding of modern Keynesian thinking.

It doesn't take an economist to figure out that taking money from Germans and Lithuanians and not paying it back helps the Greek economy.

It also does not take an economist to figure out that Germans and Lithuanians giving money to Greece and not getting it back does not help the German and Lithuanian economy. Hence if you are Greece you may find spending German and Lithuanian money and not paying it back an unreliable source of economic growth.

But I will be happy to journey to Stockholm to collect a Nobel Prize if I am the first to stumble upon this brilliant economic insight.

 

[ksen]

No, it was the percentage of debt compared to the GDP and that kept growing and eventually they couldn't pay back what they owed. The question for any government is when the burden becomes too much.

And during the run up to the Olympics Greek debt/GDP was going down.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-debt-to-gdp

 

[4321lynx]

I don't think that it is much comfort that Russia and China are hovering around with a possibility to assist.

This imaginary hobgoblin is not a particularly fearful one.

Neither Russia nor China have shown great interest in paying billions of Euros to the ECB for the privilege of funding of Greece's future budget deficits.

There's a vague possibility that Putin may help Greece somewhat in exchange for bases in, say, Cyprus, Crete or mainland Greece, thus ensuring continued Ruskie presence in the Eastern Med in case the Syrian port they have now goes thje way of Mosul and Aleppo??

OOOps I see they have already evacuated Tartus. All the more reason for other base or bases in that region.

 

[untermensche]

I bet you are since you don't have a clue what policies he proposed to help depressed economies.

Today you can read people like Krugman and Stiglitz, Nobel prize winners, for a better understanding of modern Keynesian thinking.

It doesn't take an economist to figure out that taking money from Germans and Lithuanians and not paying it back helps the Greek economy.

It also does not take an economist to figure out that Germans and Lithuanians giving money to Greece and not getting it back does not help the German and Lithuanian economy. Hence if you are Greece you may find spending German and Lithuanian money and not paying it back an unreliable source of economic growth.

But I will be happy to journey to Stockholm to collect a Nobel Prize if I am the first to stumble upon this brilliant economic insight.

Your ignorance on national economics is noted.

Hint: It is not the same thing as balancing a checkbook.

 

[dismal]

No, there is debate about the affect the Olympics had on the Greek economy. It started with Greece cooking the books to get into the EU along with the Olympics followed by the financial crisis.

There is no debate that Greek GDP was growing up until the financial crisis.

A big part of why it was growing because they were borrowing buttfucktons of foreign money and pumping it out through the ass of their corrupt government and government spending counts as GDP.

Then as the economy skidded they kept on borrowing for a while but the keynesy-gods did not answer their prayers and offerings of more debt financed spending and the economy continued to tank.

Then the long run Keynes always ignored and dismissed kicked in quicker than expected and people stopped lending them money.

Chart that shows all this:

https://cloud.highcharts.com/show/adakiq

 

[dismal]

It doesn't take an economist to figure out that taking money from Germans and Lithuanians and not paying it back helps the Greek economy.

It also does not take an economist to figure out that Germans and Lithuanians giving money to Greece and not getting it back does not help the German and Lithuanian economy. Hence if you are Greece you may find spending German and Lithuanian money and not paying it back an unreliable source of economic growth.

But I will be happy to journey to Stockholm to collect a Nobel Prize if I am the first to stumble upon this brilliant economic insight.

Your ignorance on national economics is noted.

Hint: It is not the same thing as balancing a checkbook.

tip: we are not talking about national economics here. Germany not equal Greece.

 

[untermensche]

Your ignorance on national economics is noted.

Hint: It is not the same thing as balancing a checkbook.

tip: we are not talking about national economics here. Germany not equal Greece.

The discussion is all over the place but part of the discussion is the best way to help a nation with a depressed economy.

People are right when they say just throwing money at the problem is not a solution.

But there are solutions. They do require money, but money used to build up the Greek economy, Keynesian spending. And tax increases on the wealthy.

None of this is even on the table at this point.

But insanity in human affairs is the norm.