Everything I Learned About WW II Is A LIE!

[laughing dog]

Laughing dog,
I will answer most of what you say in anither thread. Keep an eye out for it. I will call it, "Holocaust Deniers: Why Would They Lie."

Sorry, when you impugn the integrity of holocaust survivors whose testimony has been vetted, you have entered into a venal la-la land.

In the meantime, if the numbers of Jews who were killed was bullshit, and it was, what makes you think that the other things aren't mostly lies too.

Well, because your premise is false (i.e. the number of Jews who were killed is bullshit).

I suggested that "Ford" look something up and check out the information through other websites. But he apparently was afraid to do so. Maybe you will. Look up "Esienhower's Holocaust." After the war in Europe, our forces held German ex-soldiers as prisoner of ex-war. 1.5 to 1.7 of them were killed. The U.S. had plenty of food and things. So those people were basically murdered. It was a much more evil deed than anything the Germans ever did.

I suggest you read  Other_Losses and then consult the original research that refutes your claims about the number of German POWs who were killed or "missing". While there is no doubt that many German POWS were mistreated, there claim that the Eisenhower or the US acted in a callous and deliberate manner to starve and kill over 1 million German POWS lacks credible evidence.

Regardless, your attempt to say the the Allies were the same is irrelevant to the issue that the Nazis deliberately had an estimated 11 million "undesirables" (Jews, homosexuals, Roma, mentally slow, Communists, and others) killed. It is true that we do not have an exact number and never will. But that does not diminish the evil of those acts.

 

[cultsmasher]

Bronzeage,
There are many reason why the illusion of a holocaust was created. All of them are bad. Next, there were plans to revive the state of Israel long before WW II started. Hitler was a large part of creating the modern state of Israel. Next, the devision of Germany had nothing to do with the holocaust. It had to do with the ideologies of Capitalism and Communism.

Next, national socialism didn't cause Germany to be a pile of rubble. War did. A war that shouldn't have been fought to begin with. Next, you are right about most people being brainwashed. But that shouldn't keep people from speaking the truth. As to some of the rest of what you say, I will be getting around to that by and by.

Next, you start in on the smear campaign. Don't compare me to other OP's. You will find me to be a different kettle of fish. I never have never slinked away from any forum. And because nobody can defeate me in debate, they usually end up banning me for some bullshit reason or another.

An obstinate unwillingness to admit when you are beaten is not the same thing as 'nobody can defeate (sic) me in debate'.

You have so far made a number of assertions, all of which are implausible - for them to be true would imply your having access to information that is not widely available; but you claim that the information is available on the Internet. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but so far you have shown no evidence at all, other than hints that supposed eyewitness testimonies exist that counter the large body of eyewitness testimony you wish us to discard (despite your having given no compelling reason to discard the majority testimony); and that these claims also counter the physical evidence, census evidence and other primary documentary evidence for the deliberate killing of millions. Yahoo! Answers is not a reliable primary source. Referring people to search terms that they can Google is not the same as providing evidence. If there are particular websites that contain evidence you wish to present, post links (or if, as a new member, you can't post links yet, post the URLs as text).

You yourself estimate that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed, so even if we were to accept your sketchy evidence, this would not make any difference to the overall conclusion - that Nazism was a murderous cult that lead to the destruction of Germany, massive destruction in the Soviet Union and Western Europe, and the deliberate killing by the regime of its own citizens - albeit in smaller numbers than is widely believed.

Why, then, is it important to you that we should come around to your view? What hard evidence can you present that your view is correct - and that the difference between your view and the more commonly held opinion is important or significant? What difference would it make if you were correct? What actions would we take, or stop taking, if we accepted your assertion that 'only' a quarter million Jews were murdered by the Nazis?

bilby,
Give me time. I am just getting warmed up. As for this thread, nobody has sucessfully refuted me yet. But with some things, it is like debating the reality of human caused global warming with a global warming denier. No answwer you give is good enough. As for what any experts may have to say, they aren't expert enough. If you don't want to believe me, fine. Look this stuff up for yourself. But if your mindset is that 6 million Jews were gassed, I doubt if it will do any good.

 

[Bronzeage]

[Q
Give me time. I am just getting warmed up. As for this thread, nobody has sucessfully refuted me yet. But with some things, it is like debating the reality of human caused global warming with a global warming denier. No answwer you give is good enough. As for what any experts may have to say, they aren't expert enough. If you don't want to believe me, fine. Look this stuff up for yourself. But if your mindset is that 6 million Jews were gassed, I doubt if it will do any good.

So if someone refuted you, you would change your position and decide that everything you learned about WW2 is true?


My only question about all of this, is whether you believe it yourself, or are you just trying to dupe people who don't know any better? Neither is very good for you, but I'm curious.

 

[cultsmasher]

bilby,
You kill me! What makes you think Hitler caused anybody to be executed. Some probably were. But it would be far better for somebody to have only killed a quarter of a million people rather than 6 million. That is, generally speaking. Jews are a different matter. Near the end of the war, Germany had the hell bombed out of it. Things got pretty bad for Germans in general. Things were no doubt worse in internment camps. With things going on like lack of food, typhus outbreaks and who knows what other things. There is a difference between having people die from such thinga in wartime or outright being executed.

The Nazis killed an estimated 11 million people of which 6 milllion are estimated to be Jews. This is pretty much been established through serious research.

Laughingdog,
Here's the thing. Hitler may not have been perfect. But as far as you and most other people are concerned, he was a GOD! If the U.S. didn't do everything it could do to slander him, we would be flying a Nazi flag. Also, in the early 30's, Stalin caused up to 10 million Ukrainians to starve to death. He didn't even need "death camps" to do it. That on top of his many other atrocities. Hitler was an angel compared to Stalin. Yot who did we back. Also, what you call "serious research" I call "serious bullshit."

 

[zorq]

I don't know if I can believe you cult smasher, because I was fooled once before.

I saw a series of films produced with intricate detail that detailed the lives of a secretive group of people living in Great Britain. These people deliberately hid in the shadows and had their own specialized schools, shops, and even transportation.

One movie showed me the actual currency that these people used apparently they distrust the pound and prefer to use gold and silver coins whenever they make transactions with one another. One movie told me the secret words they used when they would summon their buses and taxis which would shuttle them around the city of London and the surrounding countryside.

I couldn't believe that nobody had heard about these people before, but their existence started to come to light when a book was published in 1997. This book was telling expose of one of this groups most prominent and secretive schools hidden in a quaint valley north of London. I read this book and couldn't believe the startling detail and shocking acts the students and teachers would perform. Apparently this group believes in occult practices and think they can do all kinds of mystical things like foretell the future and acquire aspects of animals after they perform certain rituals.

Further research on the internet including some queries I made on AskJeeves confirmed the existence of this queer xenophobic clan.

It turns out that all the details and testimony that went into the production of the movies and books were lies. I was so disappointed. None of it was true. Spectacular dialogues with actual members of this hidden cult and it turns out they were paid actors. Even the author of the first book admitted she had made the whole thing up.

Well I swore to myself that I would never be tricked again.

From now on I need REAL evidence that can't be faked by paid actors, detailed props, and anonymous internet testimony.
Can you provide me the evidence I need cultsmasher? Or is it possible you are just as duped as I was.

Show

And that dirty J.K. Rowling and her Harry Potter books can just go rot in hell.

 

[bilby]

An obstinate unwillingness to admit when you are beaten is not the same thing as 'nobody can defeate (sic) me in debate'.

You have so far made a number of assertions, all of which are implausible - for them to be true would imply your having access to information that is not widely available; but you claim that the information is available on the Internet. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but so far you have shown no evidence at all, other than hints that supposed eyewitness testimonies exist that counter the large body of eyewitness testimony you wish us to discard (despite your having given no compelling reason to discard the majority testimony); and that these claims also counter the physical evidence, census evidence and other primary documentary evidence for the deliberate killing of millions. Yahoo! Answers is not a reliable primary source. Referring people to search terms that they can Google is not the same as providing evidence. If there are particular websites that contain evidence you wish to present, post links (or if, as a new member, you can't post links yet, post the URLs as text).

You yourself estimate that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed, so even if we were to accept your sketchy evidence, this would not make any difference to the overall conclusion - that Nazism was a murderous cult that lead to the destruction of Germany, massive destruction in the Soviet Union and Western Europe, and the deliberate killing by the regime of its own citizens - albeit in smaller numbers than is widely believed.

Why, then, is it important to you that we should come around to your view? What hard evidence can you present that your view is correct - and that the difference between your view and the more commonly held opinion is important or significant? What difference would it make if you were correct? What actions would we take, or stop taking, if we accepted your assertion that 'only' a quarter million Jews were murdered by the Nazis?

bilby,
Give me time. I am just getting warmed up. As for this thread, nobody has sucessfully refuted me yet. But with some things, it is like debating the reality of human caused global warming with a global warming denier. No answwer you give is good enough. As for what any experts may have to say, they aren't expert enough. If you don't want to believe me, fine. Look this stuff up for yourself. But if your mindset is that 6 million Jews were gassed, I doubt if it will do any good.

You have yet to present anything other than bald assertions, so refutation isn't on the table - that which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

And you haven't answered my questions:

Why is it important to you that we should come around to your view?
What hard evidence can you present that your view is correct - and that the difference between your view and the more commonly held opinion is important or significant?
What difference would it make if you were correct?
What actions would we take, or stop taking, if we accept your assertion that 'only' a quarter million Jews were murdered by the Nazis?

 

[cultsmasher]

Well, just for starters, there was this:

The Commando Order (German: Kommandobefehl) was issued by Adolf Hitler on 18 October 1942 stating that all Allied commandos encountered by German forces in Europe and Africa should be killed immediately without trial, even in proper uniforms or if they attempted to surrender.

(source)

And this:

The Commissar Order (German: Kommissarbefehl) was an order issued by Adolf Hitler on 6 June 1941 before Operation Barbarossa. Its official name was Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars (Richtlinien für die Behandlung politischer Kommissare). It demanded that any Soviet political commissar identified among captured troops be summarily executed as an enforcer of the Communist ideology and the Soviet Communist Party line in military forces.

(source)

These are well documented; the Third Reich was a very modern and well organised bureaucracy, and as a result, orders were widely copied and distributed. Many copies still exist.

bilby,
Orders to execute enemy soldiers under certain conditions is far from rare in warfare. Next, as far as executing Russians, the more of those barbaric brainwashed animals were killed, the better. Next, do you remember my saying that the victors write history? Not to say what you mentioned was fake. But do you suppose the victors might include forgery to see that theur version of history prevails? Also, after the war the U.S. dumped huge amounts of money into European countries that it controlled under the Marshall plan. Who in their right mind that would like part of that money or be grateful for benifiting from any part of it say anything aginst the American version of things.

 

[laughing dog]

The Nazis killed an estimated 11 million people of which 6 milllion are estimated to be Jews. This is pretty much been established through serious research.

Laughingdog,
Here's the thing. Hitler may not have been perfect. But as far as you and most other people are concerned, he was a GOD! If the U.S. didn't do everything it could do to slander him, we would be flying a Nazi flag. Also, in the early 30's, Stalin caused up to 10 million Ukrainians to starve to death. He didn't even need "death camps" to do it. That on top of his many other atrocities. Hitler was an angel compared to Stalin. Yot who did we back.

I fail to see any relevance to the issue of how many people the Nazis killed. For some odd reason, you think the Nazis did not even kill 1 million Jews. So what happened to all those Jews?

Also, what you call "serious research" I call "serious bullshit."

You can call it anything you like, but that doesn't make it any less accurate. Until you can provide something other than internet bravado, I will take the results from scholars like Martin Gilbert over the ravings of yet another pathetic Holocaust denier.

 

[cultsmasher]

Sorry, when you impugn the integrity of holocaust survivors whose testimony has been vetted, you have entered into a venal la-la land.

In the meantime, if the numbers of Jews who were killed was bullshit, and it was, what makes you think that the other things aren't mostly lies too.

Well, because your premise is false (i.e. the number of Jews who were killed is bullshit).

I suggested that "Ford" look something up and check out the information through other websites. But he apparently was afraid to do so. Maybe you will. Look up "Esienhower's Holocaust." After the war in Europe, our forces held German ex-soldiers as prisoner of ex-war. 1.5 to 1.7 of them were killed. The U.S. had plenty of food and things. So those people were basically murdered. It was a much more evil deed than anything the Germans ever did.

I suggest you read  Other_Losses and then consult the original research that refutes your claims about the number of German POWs who were killed or "missing". While there is no doubt that many German POWS were mistreated, there claim that the Eisenhower or the US acted in a callous and deliberate manner to starve and kill over 1 million German POWS lacks credible evidence.

Regardless, your attempt to say the the Allies were the same is irrelevant to the issue that the Nazis deliberately had an estimated 11 million "undesirables" (Jews, homosexuals, Roma, mentally slow, Communists, and others) killed. It is true that we do not have an exact number and never will. But that does not diminish the evil of those acts.

laughingdog,
Of course it lacks credible evidence. Dead men tell no tales. I have something else that is incredible for you to look up. In your browser, search engine or whatever. It's called, "The Betrayal of the Cossacks." Then tell me more about your "greatest generation."

 

[cultsmasher]

Laughingdog,
Here's the thing. Hitler may not have been perfect. But as far as you and most other people are concerned, he was a GOD! If the U.S. didn't do everything it could do to slander him, we would be flying a Nazi flag. Also, in the early 30's, Stalin caused up to 10 million Ukrainians to starve to death. He didn't even need "death camps" to do it. That on top of his many other atrocities. Hitler was an angel compared to Stalin. Yot who did we back.

I fail to see any relevance to the issue of how many people the Nazis killed. For some odd reason, you think the Nazis did not even kill 1 million Jews. So what happened to all those Jews?

Also, what you call "serious research" I call "serious bullshit."

You can call it anything you like, but that doesn't make it any less accurate. Until you can provide something other than internet bravado, I will take the results from scholars like Martin Gilbert over the ravings of yet another pathetic Holocaust denier.

laughingdog,
I don't know how many Jews were killed. But I know 6 million weren't. Also, who has the most power to write history to their liking. The U.S. government and its allies, or the few people who are interested in uncovering the real truth. You can believe what you want. I'm in no position to provide you with extradonary proof. But the U.S. isn't the angel you think it is. Ever see the movie "Air America?" That wasn't complete bullshit. I have no doubt that the U.T. imported heroin to support some Laoation warloard who was helping them fight the Vietnamese. It is also known that the U.S. imported cocaine to help out other leaders in other countries who were helping them fight the communists.

 

[Ford]

FYI, I was mocking you.

I don't really need to type things into my browser and read them because I've already studied German history. It was part of that whole "earning a degree in history" thing that I did. It involved lots of research and reading many of these things called "books."

Maybe you should look them up. Type the word into your browser...

Ford,
Just a warning, I especially enjoy smashing the various cults of those who have a status quo supporting "Bo Peep" diploma. What makes it especially satisfying is that I dropped out of high school in my third year with three years of credits to make up for.

Well at least you admit to being uneducated.

I have written many threads at many forums.

I have as well. So have lots of people. Many uneducated people like yourself have latched onto absurd conspiracy theories and clung to them with all their might. Yet number of posts in forums does not an expert make. You're just an uneducated person with time on their hands.

I was only successfully refuted in one of them. It was a rather flippant thread in which I accused the actress Melissa Joan Hart of dating a negro.

If you're trying to impress me, it isn't working.

I have debated hundreds of people. With many hundreds more back and forth debates. Nobody was ever able to sucessfully refute anything I said in any of my other threads.

Links to these debates would be helpful. If things are as you claim, you should be proud to show us all when and where you trounced people with more education than yourself.

I can't wait for you to try too.

Try what? You apparently don't understand how this works. Not surprising for a dropout. You came here and made a pretty big assertion. It is on you to back up that assertion with evidence.

You could find your holocaust affirming cult smashed.

Or as I like to call it, long-established and well-documented historical fact.


The title of your OP is "Everything I Learned About WW II is a lie!" Based upon your posts so far, you have not learned anything about WWII, nor about German history generally, nor about the Holocaust specifically.

 

[bilby]

Well, just for starters, there was this:
(source)

And this:

The Commissar Order (German: Kommissarbefehl) was an order issued by Adolf Hitler on 6 June 1941 before Operation Barbarossa. Its official name was Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars (Richtlinien für die Behandlung politischer Kommissare). It demanded that any Soviet political commissar identified among captured troops be summarily executed as an enforcer of the Communist ideology and the Soviet Communist Party line in military forces.

(source)

These are well documented; the Third Reich was a very modern and well organised bureaucracy, and as a result, orders were widely copied and distributed. Many copies still exist.

bilby,
Orders to execute enemy soldiers under certain conditions is far from rare in warfare.

True; but that doesn't alter the facts - you asked " What makes you think Hitler caused anybody to be executed", and I have provided evidence that Hitler did, indeed, cause people to be executed.

That's how debate works - you show evidence supporting the asserions you make; and you show evidence refuting the assertions made by your opponent.

If you simply assert without evidence; or you ignore refutations as though they never happened; or you engage in logical fallacies, then you have lost the debate - whether or not you admit this to yourself or others.

Next, as far as executing Russians, the more of those barbaric brainwashed animals were killed, the better.

This is another unsupported claim - you have not shown that it is good that Russians were killed, nor that they were barbaric, brainwashed or animals. You need to provide evidence, or your assertions are worthless.

Next, do you remember my saying that the victors write history?

Yes.

Not to say what you mentioned was fake.

Then don't mention it.

But do you suppose the victors might include forgery to see that theur version of history prevails?

Anything 'might' happen. You need to provide evidence - otherwise your implications are valueless. Do you have evidence that the victors in WWII forged the evidence for the Kommandobefehl or the Kommissarbefehl? If so, then present it. Innuendo is not evidence. Hints are not evidence. Possibility is not evidence.

Also, after the war the U.S. dumped huge amounts of money into European countries that it controlled under the Marshall plan. Who in their right mind that would like part of that money or be grateful for benifiting from any part of it say anything aginst the American version of things.

If all of the people who claim that the holocaust took place were beneficiaries of the US Marshall Plan, then they might have a motive for bias. But that is far from being the case - and even if it was, it takes more than money to keep most people quiet. The Marshall Plan is long gone. Like all conspiracy theories, yours relies on the idea that huge numbers of people with little or no motive to lie, and with a huge incentive to reveal the truth, choose to remain silent.

Human nature is just not like that.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The fifteen results for "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths" are copies of your opening post.

I wish i could even say it was a surprise....

So, even if this is true, which i really doubt, what's the goal, here?
The Nazis were NOT so evil that they wiped out the equivalent of the entire population of Paraguay for racist politics, but they wiped out the entire population of Boise...for the same bullshit reason? Does that make them any less evil, or just lazier?

Keith&Co,
Copies of my post? What in the hell are you takling about.

I am takling about putting the phrase you suggested into google and all that came up were fifteen posts that parroted the OP you posted. Nothing about an actual document just your posting.

I found them long before I ever mentioned them anywhere.

Maybe so, maybe no. But your posted suggestion only returns fairly close copies of the OP.

Admittedly, I don't read or speak German.

Neither do I.
You did not mention that we needed to put a German phrase into the search engine.

I had to take the word of the people who posted the documents

Ah. So, either everything you know about WWII is a lie, or everything you know about these documents you cannot read is a lie.

Good to know.

who say that they show the "concentration camp" deaths of Jews to only have been about 271,000.

Okay. Now, is that the total death of all Jews in that document you haven't actually read, or is it possibly only the German Citizens who died in the camps, or maybe the Jews killed over a certain period of time?
Who can say?




Evidently, not you.......

Not 6 million. Next, is the population of Paraguay or Bosie 271,000?

No, the population of Paraguay is about 6 million. Boise is close to 217,000.

Am I missing something?

Whoo dang, yes.
Your entire point is missing.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I accused the actress Melissa Joan Hart of dating a negro.

I find 'accused' and 'negro' terribly telling words in that sentence.

Why is interracial dating an 'accusation?'
What's the point of 'accusing' a white woman of dating a 'Negro?'

 

[4321lynx]

Denying the Holocaust is, to my mind, as obscene as advocating sex with minors.
Why is this thread still in existence? Freedom of speech? Does nobody among the Admins here know the difference between freedom and licence" As in "Licence, they mean when Freedom they cry" ?
Denial of the Holocaust is a crime in Germany. Are you going to allow the neonazis to have a stage for their obscenity here?

NB. I AM REPORTING MY OWN POST FOR THE ADMINS CONSIDERATION AND ACTION.
I refuse to read or take part in this obscene pantomime.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Oops.
I was going to say 'good point' and report your post as well, but i made the report message 'good point.'

ah, well, they'll figure it out. The mods here are a least as educated as cultsmashers. Probably a good deal more so, what with their grasp of grammar and spelling and shit.

 

[cultsmasher]

Holocaust Deniers: Why Would They Lie

There is debate as to whether or not the holocaust killed 6 million Jews. Unfortunately there are those who deny the holocaust who also suppoert wildly crackpot conspiracy theories such as the moon landings being faked, the U.S. being behind the 9-11 attacks, etc. So it makes getting at any real truth even more difficult. Maybe a good approach would be to come up with the reasons I can think of as to why somebody would lie and say that the holocaust was largely a hoax and to come up with the reasons I can think of as to why somebody would lie and say that the holocaust was real. Then you can compare the two.

Why Would Somebody Lie and Say the Holocaust was a hoax.

1. To make money. There are many people who write books and give lectures to make money by supporting all sorts of conspiracies. Holocaust denial would fit right in.
2. To cover their guilt for having killed so many "innocent" people. Which is no reason to me. Because as far as I'm concerned, even if 6 million Jews were killed, it wasn't nearly enough.
3. To help sell the idea of White patriotism not being so bad by saying that White patriots didn't kill as many Jews as is generally believed.
4. Those who don't like the Jews would likely be interested in slandering them by saying that they largely made up the whole holocaust thing.

Why Would Somebody Lie By Saying The Holocaust Happened.

1. in 1933, a newspaper headline appeared that said, "Judea Declares War On Germany." As I quoted before, "In war, truth is the first casualty."
2. Jews control the movie industry. They may have even have had a lot of influence in raido broadcasting. This gave them a huge "soapbox" to stand on and spew their lies. And once lies are established, they are hard to go back on.
3. To take revenge on the Germans for having dared to deport the "chosen of GOD!!!"
4. Jews received reparations for the whole "holocaust" thing. As far as I know, they're still being made. If the holocaust was ever shown to be a fraud, those payments would dry up. They might even have to pay back money that was paid.
5. The U.S. might lessen it's funding of Israel. A country that it already gave nuclear weapons to.
6. By playing the "pity card," Jews are able to get away with much more.
7. For many Christians, a good way to prove the power of their imaginary god is to support the Jewish people.
8. If the holocaust was ever disproven, Jews might again be persecuted.
9. National Socialism was economically sucessful. Capitalisn wasn't and isn't. To support "The American Way," it would be very helpful to discredit national socialism in any way possible.
10. Stalin was the real monster. In the early 30's, he caused up to 10 million Ukrainians to starve to death. He didn't even need "death camps" to do it. Not to mention his many other atrocities. The holocaust and other things could be supported so that the U.S. doesn't look so bad for having supported Stalin.
11. If the holocaust was ever disproved, most people would feel extremely suckered. They would lose even more faith in the U.S. government.
12. German National Socialism wasn't into the whole multiethnic society thing. But that was and increasingly is being shoved down American's throats. So for the U.S. to promote its multiethnic society, they had to discredit the German White Patriot National Socialist system. Etc.

As you can see, the U.S. has many reasons to promote the idea of there having been a holocaust. It also has many reasons to go to whatever lengths are necessary to see that it is believed. What is that compared to the few people who seek out the truth for the truth's sake. But I support the truth. Because those who believe in a false history are doomed to suffer the same fate themselves.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So, you're doomed to have a false history? That doesn't sound like a particularly bad doom.

You could have been doomed to an office job without a future or something.

 

[bilby]

Everybody lies.

There are lots of reasons.

 

[laughing dog]

Why did Primo Levi or Elie Wiesel or Ole Ovelund lie?