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MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

I find it difficult to believe that white and Asian students are being discriminated against when they represent the greatest proportion of students admitted.
That's just an argument from personal incredulity.

It is not about who is the greatest proportion, but how high that proportion would be under a color-blind system.

Currently, ~70% of the NBA is black, far more than their 14% of the population. If NBA started discriminating against black prospects in the name of "diversity" and blacks dropped to 50% of the league, they'd still represent the "greatest proportion" and be well overrepresented in the league, but that does not mean that discrimination did not take place.
 
The problem is that you are covering two groups here.

There are the racists that want whites on top, and will object to anything that reduces that.

But there are also those of us who want a colorblind system, we agree with the civil rights movement but think society has gone too far and is now discriminating against those from successful populations. Applications should be stripped of racial information.
I believe that students have the option to not include race in their application.

That said there are and always have been ways to discern someone’s race and class by looking at where they lived, down to the neighborhood and more telling sometimes, which churches and organizations applicants belonged to.
Yeah, stripping race takes going into more detail.

What you are saying, flat out, is that you advocate for the status quo, which, conveniently enough for you, will not change your world. You seem to think that things are fine now. And they probably are for you.
Status quo is discriminate against whites, Asians, and males.
Which is exactly why you and a lot of people are looking for ways to lock people dissimilar to yourself out of educational opportunities. You think it’s ’not fair’ if MCAT and GPA are not the only factors used, with the top X scoring applicants being offered admissions, X being the number of slots for the incoming class.
I'm not trying to lock any race out of education.

You eternally see not supporting your flavor of discrimination as being for the opposite.
There is zero data that suggests that non-white and non-Asian students fail to fully meet the requirements first admission to the medical schools they are admitted to.
The basic problem is that those standards have been lowered so as to include enough minorities.
Where is your evidence that standards are or have been lowered to include enough minorities?

As far as you or I know, the highest single scores on MCAT and highest GPA belong to black or Hispanic applicants. We only know averages and have zero demographic information attached to any particular score.
We have mean and standard deviation. That doesn't prove anything about a particular person but it says that overall there is bias.

And no measure of anything that would cause this has been presented. This would be open and shut discrimination if done the other way around, but you keep supporting things which they aren't even attempting to measure.
 
No. Reposting conservative bullahot makes you a conservative. And saying, "No, no, I'm really a classical liberal" changes nothing about your concrete claims and actions such as they are
Bullshit. This just happens to be a position where conservatives happen to be right. Students should be looked at as individuals, not as cyphers for racial and ethnic groups. Note that unlike most of your Ilk, at least ZiprHead is honest that he wants to discriminate against whites and Asians and thinks that it's the right thing to do.
But agreeing with conservatives on some issues does not make me a conservative. I agree with liberals on other issues. DOGE was a disaster, we need adequate taxation (some form of a carbon tax is needed for example), we need a robust EPA and FDA. Vaccines work, the works..
Hell, I am far more liberal than say Toni who wants to keep criminalizing consensual adult sex work.
As to what critical race theory is, try reading your own link. It's a start at least. Notice how it has pretty much no words or major concepts in common with your "summary"?
Which in particular? Saying I am getting it wrong without providing particulars is useless.
 
Nobody disagrees that there was discrimination in the past. But that does not justify discrimination today.
Why not?
Because they are different people. You want to punish people who look a certain way merely because people who looked similar to them enjoyed certain advantages in the past. I.e. you want to punish people for belonging to a certain racial or ethnic group. Racism by any other name smells just as rotten, whether you call it "affirmative action" or "DEI".

But I'll give you one thing. Most other left-wing posters here are vociferously trying to deny that discrimination takes place, and engaging in increasing levels of denialism. You at least are willing to admit that you think discriminating against white and Asian students is the right thing to do. You are wrong, of course, but at least you're honest.
Says the guy who hates Muslims and black people.
 
What does it mean to "honestly look at the issue of racism"?
Not prejudging it by dividing the world into white "oppressors" and non-white "oppressed".
Not finetuning the definition of racism to get to the ideological position that "only whites can be racist".
Also, calling out black racists like Farakkhan and Sharpton instead of catering to them and their supporters.

That would be a good start at least.
 
Note that unlike most of your Ilk, at least ZiprHead is honest that he wants to discriminate against whites and Asians and thinks that it's the right thing to do.
Ziprhead is, first of all, not saying that exactly, and second of all, not the policymaker for a university medical program.
 
Nobody disagrees that there was discrimination in the past. But that does not justify discrimination today.
Why not?
So you're admitting to discriminating.
I'm in no position to discriminate anyone.

Note that you're discriminating against those who have not even been accused of doing anything wrong. This is purely punishment for being of the wrong race. Why is it wrong if done to blacks but right if done to whites and Asians??
The ones that were discriminated in the past did nothing wrong too.

During the first half of the game one team has started on the fifty yard line, the other on the twenty. Now comes the second half and both teams must now start on the twenty. Is the game now fair?
But it's not the second half.

Now it's a new game, new players. Why should they be punished for the previous game they had no part in? You are punishing completely innocent people for having the wrong parents. The Constitution specifically prohibits this.
 
What does it mean to "honestly look at the issue of racism"?
Not prejudging it by dividing the world into white "oppressors" and non-white "oppressed".
Not finetuning the definition of racism to get to the ideological position that "only whites can be racist".
Also, calling out black racists like Farakkhan and Sharpton instead of catering to them and their supporters.

That would be a good start at least.
Those are anecdotal examples, not a consistent methodology, but In short, "honestly looking at race", to you, means carefully (and exclusively) ruminating on all possible offenses to the White race you imagine yourself to be a member of, and calling out any Black popular celebrity who offends Whites. Is that correct? If not, please correct me in specific terms. I'm trying to learn, here. How do you see the world? Is it really just in two colors? I don't rightly comprehend how such a worldview could even be functional in the day to day, but perhaps we are just coming from very different places.

Personally, to try and place myself on one side of a two-sided "race war" would mean antipathy toward a part of myself and my body, a larger part of my family, and most of my community. How could I live on such terms, always hating and being hated at all times? This war of yours... I think you will find that winning it would give you no lasting pleasure even if you succeeded.
 
Nobody disagrees that there was discrimination in the past. But that does not justify discrimination today.
Why not?
So you're admitting to discriminating.
I'm in no position to discriminate anyone.

Note that you're discriminating against those who have not even been accused of doing anything wrong. This is purely punishment for being of the wrong race. Why is it wrong if done to blacks but right if done to whites and Asians??
The ones that were discriminated in the past did nothing wrong too.

During the first half of the game one team has started on the fifty yard line, the other on the twenty. Now comes the second half and both teams must now start on the twenty. Is the game now fair?
But it's not the second half.

Now it's a new game, new players. Why should they be punished for the previous game they had no part in? You are punishing completely innocent people for having the wrong parents. The Constitution specifically prohibits this.
Denial of the generational effects of racism.
 
First, there isn't a universal cutoff.
I know. That's why I wrote it as a conditional statement.
I discussed this with you multiple times over multiple years, including in this thread. When I last brought this up because the cutoffs vary at universities where Blacks or Hispanics are more prone to apply and Asians are not (like say in Puerto Rico or HBCUs OR different tiers of schools), all you did was insult the school instead of applying that new knowledge to your hypothesizing.
But what you say just shifts the problem. Why are schools catering to blacks and Hispanics willing to take less academically qualified applicants?
As to me "insulting" the PR med school, I was just commenting that their stats are so low that they make it similar to Caribbean schools, which enjoy a poor reputation. So I genuinely wonder about their attrition rates, as well as Step passage and match rates.

Lastly, it would be interesting to see the MCAT means by race for individual schools that do not cater to any particular race. I.e. what is the average MCAT of accepted Asian, white, black, and Hispanic students at the Medical College of Georgia for example. It's a state school, so they really should not be discriminating. Alas, I do not have that data.
Second, pure normality is indeed an assumption and there may be modes and skews within the data in particular to some variables that may be somewhat independent of race.
"Pure normality" is not required from real-world data. Assumption of normality works if the data is approximately normal. Second, the distribution of the mean trends toward normal with increasing N regardless of the underlying distribution (Central Limit Theorem). The width of the distribution of the means is also gets narrower with increasing N (inversely proportional to square root on N in fact). With thousands of students, the distribution of means becomes very narrow.
So yes, we can compare MCAT and GPA means even if the distribution is not perfectly normal.

Third, normality is a spectrum and when you begin to discuss maxima and minima, a beta distribution can fit data better than a normal distribution. I took a look at this over data of __test__ __takers__ in some year of MCATs. I found that a distribution of test takers in general with mean of 500.6, stdev of 11.2, had somewhat more normal like distribution 1 stdev out of from mean but also it was different, i.e. a beta distribution began to impact the numbers. Now 2 stdev from the mean, the beta distribution was stronger than the normal. What I mean by this is that the percents of population at the tails is more reflective of a beta distribution than a normal distribution.
That is very interesting, but does not affect the discussion of the stark differences in means between different racial groups. Also note, all test takers is a bigger set than applicants, because most people don't bother applying with a really bad score.
You ought to consider how these three factors: non-universal cutoffs, different subgroups applying to different schools, and beta distributions play a role rather than just throwing your hands up in the air and saying, "that's a shitty school!"
But you are assuming all these things work out to effect blacks and Hispanics being accepted with far lesser average scores than whites and Asians in absence of discrimination. But why should we assume that? Especially when academia is strongly in favor of practicing racial preferences in order to enhance "diversity" (except in schools like Morehouse and Meharry, where diversity doesn't matter).
At least ZiprHead, for all his faults, is honest about supporting such discrimination.

Finally, so far I am discussing with you your assumptions and the math, but as bilby and others have pointed out, this all could be besides the point. Earlier, I posted a study that suggests MCATs are not predictive of how good a doctor becomes __or__ at least that once one has gotten into medical school and made it through, the level of precision used on an MCAT score is not correlated to success as a doctor.
MCAT and GPA are correlated with passing Step 1. They are correlated with likelihood of dropping out, which is very costly for the student and not great for the school either.
MCAT is a tool used for med school admission. There are four years of med school to get through, and variable number of years in residency. They all shape the student. So it's hardly surprising that performance on an entrance exam fades in importance in the years after. But med schools cannot look forward in time and see directly who will be successful later on. They have to make predictions from what they have. If not MCAT, what do you propose that would have a greater validity? The advantage of the MCAT is that everybody takes the same test (college classes are highly variable between institutions) and the student has to actually take the exam - can't outsource that like essay writing.
 
The problem is that you are covering two groups here.

There are the racists that want whites on top, and will object to anything that reduces that.

But there are also those of us who want a colorblind system, we agree with the civil rights movement but think society has gone too far and is now discriminating against those from successful populations. Applications should be stripped of racial information.
I believe that students have the option to not include race in their application.

That said there are and always have been ways to discern someone’s race and class by looking at where they lived, down to the neighborhood and more telling sometimes, which churches and organizations applicants belonged to.
Yeah, stripping race takes going into more detail.

What you are saying, flat out, is that you advocate for the status quo, which, conveniently enough for you, will not change your world. You seem to think that things are fine now. And they probably are for you.
Status quo is discriminate against whites, Asians, and males.
Which is exactly why you and a lot of people are looking for ways to lock people dissimilar to yourself out of educational opportunities. You think it’s ’not fair’ if MCAT and GPA are not the only factors used, with the top X scoring applicants being offered admissions, X being the number of slots for the incoming class.
I'm not trying to lock any race out of education.

You eternally see not supporting your flavor of discrimination as being for the opposite.
There is zero data that suggests that non-white and non-Asian students fail to fully meet the requirements first admission to the medical schools they are admitted to.
The basic problem is that those standards have been lowered so as to include enough minorities.
Where is your evidence that standards are or have been lowered to include enough minorities?

As far as you or I know, the highest single scores on MCAT and highest GPA belong to black or Hispanic applicants. We only know averages and have zero demographic information attached to any particular score.
We have mean and standard deviation. That doesn't prove anything about a particular person but it says that overall there is bias.

And no measure of anything that would cause this has been presented. This would be open and shut discrimination if done the other way around, but you keep supporting things which they aren't even attempting to measure.
I’m going to type this very slowly and patiently: Please try to hear it in your head as I type this:

It is not discrimination against whites, Asians, or makes to no longer be automatically considered the best candidate for all good things.

It us not racist ( or sexist) to recognize that it was once the presumption that all Hugh paying, highly skilled and prestigious and desirable positions and benefits were by rights, designed for males, preferably white ( or more recently, Asians) and the entire selection process was built on that presumption—how to select the best suited white or Asian ) male for whatever spot was available.

But now too ma y women and darker than pasty white people started making noise and wanting to push in and darn it if a lot of them were not just as good or even better than the white guys— Plus patients really like them

No longer having first place or the first 100 places) reserved for you does not mean you are now being discriminated against. It means that others are now being given a fair chance and sometimes they are the better candidate.

Sorry Llren: The era of white male ( supposed) suprenacy is fading.

Y’all still get plenty of chances but now so do other people.

Guess what: Competition got stiffer.
 
First, there isn't a universal cutoff.
I know. That's why I wrote it as a conditional statement.
I discussed this with you multiple times over multiple years, including in this thread. When I last brought this up because the cutoffs vary at universities where Blacks or Hispanics are more prone to apply and Asians are not (like say in Puerto Rico or HBCUs OR different tiers of schools), all you did was insult the school instead of applying that new knowledge to your hypothesizing.
But what you say just shifts the problem. Why are schools catering to blacks and Hispanics willing to take less academically qualified applicants?
As to me "insulting" the PR med school, I was just commenting that their stats are so low that they make it similar to Caribbean schools, which enjoy a poor reputation. So I genuinely wonder about their attrition rates, as well as Step passage and match rates.

Lastly, it would be interesting to see the MCAT means by race for individual schools that do not cater to any particular race. I.e. what is the average MCAT of accepted Asian, white, black, and Hispanic students at the Medical College of Georgia for example. It's a state school, so they really should not be discriminating. Alas, I do not have that data.
Second, pure normality is indeed an assumption and there may be modes and skews within the data in particular to some variables that may be somewhat independent of race.
"Pure normality" is not required from real-world data. Assumption of normality works if the data is approximately normal. Second, the distribution of the mean trends toward normal with increasing N regardless of the underlying distribution (Central Limit Theorem). The width of the distribution of the means is also gets narrower with increasing N (inversely proportional to square root on N in fact). With thousands of students, the distribution of means becomes very narrow.
So yes, we can compare MCAT and GPA means even if the distribution is not perfectly normal.

Third, normality is a spectrum and when you begin to discuss maxima and minima, a beta distribution can fit data better than a normal distribution. I took a look at this over data of __test__ __takers__ in some year of MCATs. I found that a distribution of test takers in general with mean of 500.6, stdev of 11.2, had somewhat more normal like distribution 1 stdev out of from mean but also it was different, i.e. a beta distribution began to impact the numbers. Now 2 stdev from the mean, the beta distribution was stronger than the normal. What I mean by this is that the percents of population at the tails is more reflective of a beta distribution than a normal distribution.
That is very interesting, but does not affect the discussion of the stark differences in means between different racial groups. Also note, all test takers is a bigger set than applicants, because most people don't bother applying with a really bad score.
You ought to consider how these three factors: non-universal cutoffs, different subgroups applying to different schools, and beta distributions play a role rather than just throwing your hands up in the air and saying, "that's a shitty school!"
But you are assuming all these things work out to effect blacks and Hispanics being accepted with far lesser average scores than whites and Asians in absence of discrimination. But why should we assume that? Especially when academia is strongly in favor of practicing racial preferences in order to enhance "diversity" (except in schools like Morehouse and Meharry, where diversity doesn't matter).
At least ZiprHead, for all his faults, is honest about supporting such discrimination.

Finally, so far I am discussing with you your assumptions and the math, but as bilby and others have pointed out, this all could be besides the point. Earlier, I posted a study that suggests MCATs are not predictive of how good a doctor becomes __or__ at least that once one has gotten into medical school and made it through, the level of precision used on an MCAT score is not correlated to success as a doctor.
MCAT and GPA are correlated with passing Step 1. They are correlated with likelihood of dropping out, which is very costly for the student and not great for the school either.
MCAT is a tool used for med school admission. There are four years of med school to get through, and variable number of years in residency. They all shape the student. So it's hardly surprising that performance on an entrance exam fades in importance in the years after. But med schools cannot look forward in time and see directly who will be successful later on. They have to make predictions from what they have. If not MCAT, what do you propose that would have a greater validity? The advantage of the MCAT is that everybody takes the same test (college classes are highly variable between institutions) and the student has to actually take the exam - can't outsource that like essay writing.
I’d ask why you are assuming that black and Hispanic candidates are less qualified but we all know the answer .
 
Again, undergrad percentage of Asians in class of 2029 at Harvard is 40+%.

You are brain fucking numbers to create an allusion that matches your racist view of collegiate education in the United States.
Class of 2029 is after they lost their lawsuit. It was <25% in the years past. That strongly indicates that they were discriminating against Asians until the courts told them to cut it out.
H-RacialBreakdown-chart-fixed.png


Also, calling people "racist" just for disagreeing with you is uncalled for. Especially when you offer a number that contradicts your thesis.
 
Students should be looked at as individuals, not as cyphers for racial and ethnic groups.
As, indeed, they are. Your delusions are not reality.
ZiprHead's analogy of the football game shows that it is not a delusion. And that analogy, or analogies like that (foot races are especially common), are very common in leftist defenses of racial preferences.
 
Says the guy who hates Muslims and black people.
I don't hate either. I am very critical of the tenets of Islam and hate the ideology of Islamism. I am also very critical of much of contemporary racial politics and hate black nationalism/supremacism. Those are not the same things.

And unlike you, I do not support anybody being discriminated against on account of their race or ethnicity.
 
I disagree about people skills, although my experience with surgeons is that most don’t particularly see the need.

Anyone who operates on the wrong body part or who has a rag in the OR is grossly negligent. This has nothing to do with GPA, MCAT scores or how well they did in med school r in their residencies. It suggests strongly that there may be a substance abuse issue or that the hospital is grossly understaffed forcing physicians to work when they are over tired.
You know, I don't dislike you at all Toni. But I'm becoming more and more convinced that we don't even speak the same language. There exists some sort of communication barrier that I just haven't been able to find a way around.

My premise is that good bedside manner is a great thing in a doctor, and makes a doctor better. But bedside manner alone cannot overcome a lack of medical expertise and skill. Medical knowledge is a necessary component of being a good doctor. Someone can be an acceptable doctor without good bedside manner, but cannot be a good doctor without medical knowledge.

I don't think this is a difficult concept, I don't think it's outlandish, and it's certainly not novel. It's not like I'm proposing some new concept here.

What I fail to understand is why you disagree with me on that very fundamental concept. Enough so that you've disagreed repeatedly, despite me having tried to reframe and re-explain my premise.
You do not understand me.

I would never contest the idea that a thorough and extensive knowledge and understanding of human anatomy and physiology as well as microbiology, virology and immunology and how various disease processes work in the human body as well
as best medical practices are essential.
You're right - I do NOT understand you. I don't understand you because despite you saying you would never contest that knowledge is a requirement... you actually and literally disagreed with me when I said it's a requirement, and that social skills are an added bonus.
So no, I don't understand you. And this has happened multiple times, across a wide variety of topics. I make a statement - not a controversial or novel or even challenging statement - and you disagree with me. I try to restate what I said, because your disagreement makes no sense to me, so I assume I'm not communicating clearly. And you continue to disagree with me. And you go on disagreeing with me. And eventually at some point you will restate yourself...

At which point it's clear that you actually agree with me.

But now we've spent several posts of you disagreeing with me about the thing you agree with.

You did that with this.

I said "Social skills and empathy are nice to haves. Body of knowledge, ability to accurately diagnose and treat are foundational requirements."
You disagreed with that. And now... after multiple back and forths, you have confirmed that body of knowledge is essential.

So no. I don't understand your persistent need to disagree with me vociferously about things you agree with.
 
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