Hey Bilby I thought Australia had gun control?

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

Most Muslims, like most black people, Latinx, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and even a lot of Christians and atheists just want to go about their lives, worshipping or not, as they choose.

lol, you just can’t help yourself.

So you believe most Christians are evil. That's real hardcore atheism.

 

[southernhybrid]

This was a terrible tragedy and I'm wondering why the killers owned legally registered guns for over 10 years. I heard this morning that Australian government plans to make it even harder to own guns legally. Wish we had such rational leaders in the US. It used to require a background check to obtain a concealed carry permit in Georgia, but our idiot governor dropped that requirement a few years ago, so now any idiot can carry concealed legally, as long as they haven't been convicted of a felony.

 

[WAB]

This was a terrible tragedy and I'm wondering why the killers owned legally registered guns for over 10 years. I heard this morning that Australian government plans to make it even harder to own guns legally. Wish we had such rational leaders in the US. It used to require a background check to obtain a concealed carry permit in Georgia, but our idiot governor dropped that requirement a few years ago, so now any idiot can carry concealed legally, as long as they haven't been convicted of a felony.

I know at least two men who are convicted felons, one a family member, and the other a friend of his who is now in prison. Both purchased guns anyway, in total disregard of the law. Some people, and I imagine the number is very high, don't actually give a rat's ass about the 2nd amendment. They mainly use it as a talking point. They just want their guns.

 

[Toni]

This was a terrible tragedy and I'm wondering why the killers owned legally registered guns for over 10 years. I heard this morning that Australian government plans to make it even harder to own guns legally. Wish we had such rational leaders in the US. It used to require a background check to obtain a concealed carry permit in Georgia, but our idiot governor dropped that requirement a few years ago, so now any idiot can carry concealed legally, as long as they haven't been convicted of a felony.

I know at least two men who are convicted felons, one a family member, and the other a friend of his who is now in prison. Both purchased guns anyway, in total disregard of the law. Some people, and I imagine the number is very high, don't actually give a rat's ass about the 2nd amendment. They mainly use it as a talking point. They just want their guns.

Plus, and I truly mean no offense to the male members here, some people own guns because it makes them feel more manly and some because they feel safer.

 

[RVonse]

This was a terrible tragedy and I'm wondering why the killers owned legally registered guns for over 10 years. I heard this morning that Australian government plans to make it even harder to own guns legally. Wish we had such rational leaders in the US. It used to require a background check to obtain a concealed carry permit in Georgia, but our idiot governor dropped that requirement a few years ago, so now any idiot can carry concealed legally, as long as they haven't been convicted of a felony.

I did not know this and thank you for answering my OP. As far as I knew, Australia had gun control meaning that everyone had their guns taken away. Apparently that is not the case.

 

[bilby]

As far as I knew, Australia had gun control meaning that everyone had their guns taken away. Apparently that is not the case.

It has NEVER been the case, anywhere in the world. The idea that gun control means "everyone has their guns taken away" is pure propaganda; Only crazy right-wing Americans actually say such nonsense, and only an idiot would believe it.

Guns are not difficult to obtain anywhere.

What effective gun control does is make guns less desirable to obtain for most criminal purposes.

I posted the below quote of mine from six years ago already in this thread. Did you read it? Did you try to understand it?

Obtaining a firearm, either by buying one illegally, or making one in a home workshop, is easy and cheap anywhere in the developed world.

The difference between the USA and (for example) the UK is not in the ease of obtaining a gun; It is in the consequences of being caught with one.

In many parts of the US, merely being seen to have a gun is not grounds for police interest or intervention (as long as your skin color checks out). If the cops do care to investigate your weapon, and find that you are not licensed to have it, or that it's stolen property, the penalties are slight. It's a misdemeanour, and a small fine, and confiscation, are the likely penalties.

Being seen with a gun in the UK - even if you are fully licensed and own the weapon in question - will likely provoke a severe police response. If you haven't broken any laws, you will nevertheless be cautioned about causing 'alarm and despondency' (which is illegal), by allowing the public to see it - and potentially be scared by it.

If the UK police find you in possession of a gun that you do NOT have a licence for, then you can expect to be sent to jail for several years. Just for having the gun - you needn't shoot or threaten anyone with it.

The result of this is that criminals don't habitually carry guns in the UK. It's too risky.

Gun control has bugger all to do with making guns hard to obtain. It's all about making guns undesirable to keep, particularly for criminals.

Very few Americans appear to be capable of understanding this simple fact.

 

[Toni]

This was a terrible tragedy and I'm wondering why the killers owned legally registered guns for over 10 years. I heard this morning that Australian government plans to make it even harder to own guns legally. Wish we had such rational leaders in the US. It used to require a background check to obtain a concealed carry permit in Georgia, but our idiot governor dropped that requirement a few years ago, so now any idiot can carry concealed legally, as long as they haven't been convicted of a felony.

I did not know this and thank you for answering my OP. As far as I knew, Australia had gun control meaning that everyone had their guns taken away. Apparently that is not the case.

Gun control does NOT mean everybody has their guns taken away.

I realize that is a fear, and that the fear is amped up deliberately by the NRA which is now a subsidiary of Russia. Ok, slight exaggeration there but very close ties and lots of money from Russia.

 

[southernhybrid]

As far as I knew, Australia had gun control meaning that everyone had their guns taken away. Apparently that is not the case.

It has NEVER been the case, anywhere in the world. The idea that gun control means "everyone has their guns taken away" is pure propaganda; Only crazy right-wing Americans actually say such nonsense, and only an idiot would believe it.

Guns are not difficult to obtain anywhere.

What effective gun control does is make guns less desirable to obtain for most criminal purposes.

I posted the below quote of mine from six years ago already in this thread. Did you read it? Did you try to understand it?

Obtaining a firearm, either by buying one illegally, or making one in a home workshop, is easy and cheap anywhere in the developed world.

The difference between the USA and (for example) the UK is not in the ease of obtaining a gun; It is in the consequences of being caught with one.

In many parts of the US, merely being seen to have a gun is not grounds for police interest or intervention (as long as your skin color checks out). If the cops do care to investigate your weapon, and find that you are not licensed to have it, or that it's stolen property, the penalties are slight. It's a misdemeanour, and a small fine, and confiscation, are the likely penalties.

Being seen with a gun in the UK - even if you are fully licensed and own the weapon in question - will likely provoke a severe police response. If you haven't broken any laws, you will nevertheless be cautioned about causing 'alarm and despondency' (which is illegal), by allowing the public to see it - and potentially be scared by it.

If the UK police find you in possession of a gun that you do NOT have a licence for, then you can expect to be sent to jail for several years. Just for having the gun - you needn't shoot or threaten anyone with it.

The result of this is that criminals don't habitually carry guns in the UK. It's too risky.

Gun control has bugger all to do with making guns hard to obtain. It's all about making guns undesirable to keep, particularly for criminals.

Very few Americans appear to be capable of understanding this simple fact.

If you are a felon carrying or trying to buy a gun in the US, you will get an extremely long sentence, at least in most cases. I know of one who tried to sell a gun to an undercover FBI or GBI agent. He received a 17 year prison sentence. He had served his time for a past crime, but was very stupid. He was a friend of my neighbor's. His wife divorced him shortly after starting the prison term. I met him briefly once. He seemed like he had been rehabilitated, but due to his past crime, he received a very harsh sentence for owning a gun, as a felon. Stupid. Stupid Stupid.

We really don't have any gun control in the US, other than if one has a history being found guilty of a crime. Many if not most of those who commit violent crimes in the US have no history of criminal activity. The guys in your country had no history of committing crimes, at least that's what I read in two different sources of news.

I simply despise guns and the way the idiots in SCOTUS, among others, have interpreted the 2nd amendment. They seem to forget that part about a "well regulated militia". Plus, the guns when that idiotic amendment was written were nothing like the ones we have today. Ok. That's a rant.

 

[bilby]

If you are a felon carrying or trying to buy a gun in the US, you will get an extremely long sentence, at least in most cases.

Well, you will if you are caught and identified.

The point is that in the US, if you see a gun in somebody's home or car, (or even see someone carrying a gun in public in some states) that is not (on its own) cause for police action.

In the UK or Australia, if a person so much as sees a gun (other than in an obviously lawful context, say at a shooting range or in a hunting party), particularly in an urban or suburban setting, they will call the cops, and the cops take that report very seriously as a threat to the public.

I know of one who tried to sell a gun to an undercover FBI or GBI agent. He received a 17 year prison sentence. He had served his time for a past crime, but was very stupid. He was a friend of my neighbor's. His wife divorced him shortly after starting the prison term. I met him briefly once. He seemed like he had been rehabilitated, but due to his past crime, he received a very harsh sentence for owning a gun, as a felon. Stupid. Stupid Stupid.

Yup. Stupid. But not really a counterexample to my point.

We really don't have any gun control in the US, other than if one has a history being found guilty of a crime.

Exactly. And if people don't print their criminal record on a t-shirt, merely seeing a gun in someone's posession isn't cause for alarm.

If you were to call the cops and say you noticed a handgun in you neighbour's house, that they weren't doing anything with - it was just lying on a table - the cops would be wondering why you called, and would think you were wasting their time (unless you identified your neighbour as a known felon).

If I did the same, an armed response unit would lock down the whole area and arrest the neighbour in short order (this did in fact happen in my street a couple of days ago):
https://mypolice.qld.gov.au/news/2025/12/12/pspa-declaration-marsden/

Police have made an emergency declaration under the Public Safety Preservation Act (PSPA) following an ongoing incident at Maple Street, Marsden.

The PSPA was declared just after 10am following reports of an armed person in the proximity of Maple Street.

That was all - "reports of an armed person" was enough to shut down six streets.

Many if not most of those who commit violent crimes in the US have no history of criminal activity. The guys in your country had no history of committing crimes, at least that's what I read in two different sources of news.

Yeah, I heard that the older gunman had a licence, which he couldn't have if he had a criminal record more serious than an unpaid parking ticket.

 

[southernhybrid]

If you are a felon carrying or trying to buy a gun in the US, you will get an extremely long sentence, at least in most cases.

Well, you will if you are caught and identified.

The point is that in the US, if you see a gun in somebody's home or car, (or even see someone carrying a gun in public in some states) that is not (on its own) cause for police action.

In the UK or Australia, if a person so much as sees a gun (other than in an obviously lawful context, say at a shooting range or in a hunting party), particularly in an urban or suburban setting, they will call the cops, and the cops take that report very seriously as a threat to the public.

I know of one who tried to sell a gun to an undercover FBI or GBI agent. He received a 17 year prison sentence. He had served his time for a past crime, but was very stupid. He was a friend of my neighbor's. His wife divorced him shortly after starting the prison term. I met him briefly once. He seemed like he had been rehabilitated, but due to his past crime, he received a very harsh sentence for owning a gun, as a felon. Stupid. Stupid Stupid.

Yup. Stupid. But not really a counterexample to my point.

We really don't have any gun control in the US, other than if one has a history being found guilty of a crime.

Exactly. And if people don't print their criminal record on a t-shirt, merely seeing a gun in someone's posession isn't cause for alarm.

If you were to call the cops and say you noticed a handgun in you neighbour's house, that they weren't doing anything with - it was just lying on a table - the cops would be wondering why you called, and would think you were wasting their time (unless you identified your neighbour as a known felon).

If I did the same, an armed response unit would lock down the whole area and arrest the neighbour in short order (this did in fact happen in my street a couple of days ago):
https://mypolice.qld.gov.au/news/2025/12/12/pspa-declaration-marsden/

Police have made an emergency declaration under the Public Safety Preservation Act (PSPA) following an ongoing incident at Maple Street, Marsden.

The PSPA was declared just after 10am following reports of an armed person in the proximity of Maple Street.

That was all - "reports of an armed person" was enough to shut down six streets.

Many if not most of those who commit violent crimes in the US have no history of criminal activity. The guys in your country had no history of committing crimes, at least that's what I read in two different sources of news.

Yeah, I heard that the older gunman had a licence, which he couldn't have if he had a criminal record more serious than an unpaid parking ticket.

I wasn't disputing what you said, but it wasn't clear to me in your other post, how Australians respond if they see someone with a gun. Yes, I agree that is very different compared to here. My point was just if a felon gets caught with a gun, they will usually get a harsh sentence.

 

[laughing dog]

Most Muslims, like most black people, Latinx, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and even a lot of Christians and atheists just want to go about their lives, worshipping or not, as they choose.

lol, you just can’t help yourself.

Neither can you. Quiet Piggy

 

[Tigers!]

In 1998/99 my parents went on their grand world tour. They went to Florida to visit Cape Canaveral where dad knew an engineer. They saw a Shuttle launch. (I was so jealous.)
They then went to Dallas and noticed guns poking out of some car windows driving by. And saw what driving shotgun actually means. They found that hard to comprehend and accept. Nothing happened whilst they were there but it was a culture shock.
My dad spend years in the RAAF reserve and was learnt to shoot and handle guns. He partially grew up near Elidon, Victoria, along the Goulburn River where duck and rabbit/fox shooting was an every day occurrence. His uncle, a sniper in WW2, has a superb Lee Enfield sniper rifle. I was fortunate enough to learn how to use it properly and fire it.
But seeing guns in car windows in an urban setting was something else.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yes, they prefer to “take over” through demographics! It’s a global Muslim conspiracy!

What utter idiocy

I mean... that's kind of how christians took over italy though. And the rest of europe.

 

[Derec]

We just had a college shooting yesterday at Brown University.

Must be Islam.

Given that the class that was shot up was taught by an Israeli-American professor (she wasn't present though), it is very possible that it was, like the Bondi Beach massacre, a "Globalize the Intifada" shooting, whether the shooter was a Muslim himself or just a fellow traveler/useful idiot.

Brown professor says shooting broke out at review session for her class final

Her Brown profile: Rachel M Friedberg

Of course, we still don't know the identity of the shooter, or what he yelled. Hopefully the right guy gets caught soon.

Speaking of all this, FBI thwarted a "Globalize the Intifada" bombing plot.
4 members of far-left group charged for alleged terror plot in California, feds say

Federal law enforcement officials said Monday that four members of a far-left anti-government group have been arrested and face charges for allegedly planning a series of bomb attacks across Southern California on New Year's Eve.
[...]
FBI Director Kash Patel said that the four people who face charges were members of a group known as the Turtle Island Liberation Front. Bondi described the Turtle Island Liberation Front as a "far-left, pro-Palestine, anti-government, and anti-capitalist group."
Bill Essayli, who leads the U.S. Attorney's Office in Los Angeles, said at a press conference that the four individuals were arrested Friday in San Bernardino County, where they gathered to construct and detonate test explosive devices in the Mojave Desert. He said the suspects allegedly crafted a "detailed, coordinated plot" to bomb two U.S. companies on New Year's Eve, with the devices simultaneously exploding at midnight. Essayli did not name the companies but said they were "logistics centers."
[...]
The group has expressed pro-Palestinian messages on social media and has said it is fighting against "fascist colonizers." It has urged followers to bring Palestinian flags to protests.

Not sure why Zachary Page is not identified either with his government name or his Indian moniker below his mugshot, but they were all named in the article.

 

[Emily Lake]

As far as I knew, Australia had gun control meaning that everyone had their guns taken away. Apparently that is not the case.

It has NEVER been the case, anywhere in the world. The idea that gun control means "everyone has their guns taken away" is pure propaganda; Only crazy right-wing Americans actually say such nonsense, and only an idiot would believe it.

Guns are not difficult to obtain anywhere.

What effective gun control does is make guns less desirable to obtain for most criminal purposes.

I posted the below quote of mine from six years ago already in this thread. Did you read it? Did you try to understand it?

I think some of your items below are incorrect.

Obtaining a firearm, either by buying one illegally, or making one in a home workshop, is easy and cheap anywhere in the developed world.

The difference between the USA and (for example) the UK is not in the ease of obtaining a gun; It is in the consequences of being caught with one.

In many parts of the US, merely being seen to have a gun is not grounds for police interest or intervention (as long as your skin color checks out).

In some parts of the US, open carry is legal and being seen with a gun is not grounds for interest. In most parts of the US, however, open carry is not allowed in cities, only in the countryside, and is generally expected to be associated with hunting. In most of the US, concealed carry of pistols is allowed, but concealment is the expectation - and if you're open carrying a pistol you're likely to draw attention regardless of melanin content.

If the cops do care to investigate your weapon, and find that you are not licensed to have it,

Most localities don't require licensing.

or that it's stolen property, the penalties are slight. It's a misdemeanour, and a small fine, and confiscation, are the likely penalties.

The penalty for possessing a stolen firearm are almost always a very serious felony that usually involves jail time.

Being seen with a gun in the UK - even if you are fully licensed and own the weapon in question - will likely provoke a severe police response. If you haven't broken any laws, you will nevertheless be cautioned about causing 'alarm and despondency' (which is illegal), by allowing the public to see it - and potentially be scared by it.

Generally true in the US as well - openly carrying pistols (outside of a very few states) will get you noticed, no matter how white you are, and will likely get you police attention and a lecture if not outright harassment. Open carrying long guns within most city limits is also going to get you noticed, although if you're in an area with a lot of hunters and it's clearly a hunting rifle during hunting season perhaps not so much. If you walk into downtown LA sporting a .308 rifle, you will definitely get a cop response even if you're the blondest, blue-eyed-est, nordic looking whitey white guy out there.

If the UK police find you in possession of a gun that you do NOT have a licence for, then you can expect to be sent to jail for several years. Just for having the gun - you needn't shoot or threaten anyone with it.

The result of this is that criminals don't habitually carry guns in the UK. It's too risky.

Sure, why take the risk when a knife or a bat will do just as much damage to an unarmed person who is precluded from owning or carrying any means by which to defend themselves? Not saying the US doesn't have a violence problem... but it's genuinely not nearly as much of a citizens legally owning firearms violence problem as you seem to think.

Gun control has bugger all to do with making guns hard to obtain. It's all about making guns undesirable to keep, particularly for criminals.

Very few Americans appear to be capable of understanding this simple fact.

We understand it. We also understand that strict gun laws don't always work the way you think they ought to. For example... the vast majority of gun violence occurs in cities, but there's a higher per capita gun ownership in rural areas and outside of metropolitan areas. Many of those big cities that have big gun violence also have stricter gun laws. Many of the big cities that have big gun violence have big gang and drug-related issues as well.

Something that many europeans (including australia and new zealand for simplicity here) appear incapable of understanding is that we have a large land border across which the major source of cartel-based drugs are smuggled, distributed predominantly by gangs. Some of the absolute highest gun-related homicide rates in the world are in central and south america, and that spills over into the US.

Bear in mind that the US is BIG. We're 40 times bigger than the entire UK, 36 times bigger than NZ, and 28% bigger than AU (not including Alaska, by the way). And we share a large and fairly porous border with one of the world's largest producers of heroin, fentanyl, and meth, and which acts as a hands-off conduit for the world's largest producer of cocaine.

You're right that the US needs to figure out some sort of reasonable and sensible means to mitigate gun violence. But you're wrong if you think that citizen gun ownership is even remotely the biggest problem.

 

[Emily Lake]

Many if not most of those who commit violent crimes in the US have no history of criminal activity.

The vast majority of gun violence in the US is committed by criminals, not by law abiding citizens.

But that's not what makes the evening news.

 

[laughing dog]

Many if not most of those who commit violent crimes in the US have no history of criminal activity.

The vast majority of gun violence in the US is committed by criminals, not by law abiding citizens.

But that's not what makes the evening news.

It certainly does around here.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

As far as I knew, Australia had gun control meaning that everyone had their guns taken away. Apparently that is not the case.

It has NEVER been the case, anywhere in the world. The idea that gun control means "everyone has their guns taken away" is pure propaganda; Only crazy right-wing Americans actually say such nonsense, and only an idiot would believe it.

Guns are not difficult to obtain anywhere.

What effective gun control does is make guns less desirable to obtain for most criminal purposes.

I posted the below quote of mine from six years ago already in this thread. Did you read it? Did you try to understand it?

I think some of your items below are incorrect.

Obtaining a firearm, either by buying one illegally, or making one in a home workshop, is easy and cheap anywhere in the developed world.

The difference between the USA and (for example) the UK is not in the ease of obtaining a gun; It is in the consequences of being caught with one.

In many parts of the US, merely being seen to have a gun is not grounds for police interest or intervention (as long as your skin color checks out).

In some parts of the US, open carry is legal and being seen with a gun is not grounds for interest. In most parts of the US, however, open carry is not allowed in cities, only in the countryside, and is generally expected to be associated with hunting. In most of the US, concealed carry of pistols is allowed, but concealment is the expectation - and if you're open carrying a pistol you're likely to draw attention regardless of melanin content.

If the cops do care to investigate your weapon, and find that you are not licensed to have it,

Most localities don't require licensing.

or that it's stolen property, the penalties are slight. It's a misdemeanour, and a small fine, and confiscation, are the likely penalties.

The penalty for possessing a stolen firearm are almost always a very serious felony that usually involves jail time.

Being seen with a gun in the UK - even if you are fully licensed and own the weapon in question - will likely provoke a severe police response. If you haven't broken any laws, you will nevertheless be cautioned about causing 'alarm and despondency' (which is illegal), by allowing the public to see it - and potentially be scared by it.

Generally true in the US as well - openly carrying pistols (outside of a very few states) will get you noticed, no matter how white you are, and will likely get you police attention and a lecture if not outright harassment. Open carrying long guns within most city limits is also going to get you noticed, although if you're in an area with a lot of hunters and it's clearly a hunting rifle during hunting season perhaps not so much. If you walk into downtown LA sporting a .308 rifle, you will definitely get a cop response even if you're the blondest, blue-eyed-est, nordic looking whitey white guy out there.

If the UK police find you in possession of a gun that you do NOT have a licence for, then you can expect to be sent to jail for several years. Just for having the gun - you needn't shoot or threaten anyone with it.

The result of this is that criminals don't habitually carry guns in the UK. It's too risky.

Sure, why take the risk when a knife or a bat will do just as much damage to an unarmed person who is precluded from owning or carrying any means by which to defend themselves? Not saying the US doesn't have a violence problem... but it's genuinely not nearly as much of a citizens legally owning firearms violence problem as you seem to think.

Gun control has bugger all to do with making guns hard to obtain. It's all about making guns undesirable to keep, particularly for criminals.

Very few Americans appear to be capable of understanding this simple fact.

We understand it. We also understand that strict gun laws don't always work the way you think they ought to. For example... the vast majority of gun violence occurs in cities, but there's a higher per capita gun ownership in rural areas and outside of metropolitan areas. Many of those big cities that have big gun violence also have stricter gun laws. Many of the big cities that have big gun violence have big gang and drug-related issues as well.

Something that many europeans (including australia and new zealand for simplicity here) appear incapable of understanding is that we have a large land border across which the major source of cartel-based drugs are smuggled, distributed predominantly by gangs. Some of the absolute highest gun-related homicide rates in the world are in central and south america, and that spills over into the US.

Bear in mind that the US is BIG. We're 40 times bigger than the entire UK, 36 times bigger than NZ, and 28% bigger than AU (not including Alaska, by the way). And we share a large and fairly porous border with one of the world's largest producers of heroin, fentanyl, and meth, and which acts as a hands-off conduit for the world's largest producer of cocaine.

You're right that the US needs to figure out some sort of reasonable and sensible means to mitigate gun violence. But you're wrong if you think that citizen gun ownership is even remotely the biggest problem.

That 28% figure DOES include Alaska. The contiguous USA area is only 5% larger than Australia - 8.08 compared with 7.688 square kilometres.
Also, though USA is big it has also a big population without the massive areas of unpopulated or almost unpopulated regions Australia has, so in sense of isolated areas Australia is much bigger. Americans don't appreciate how big Australia is, or how small Texas is in comparison.
RE the bolded part - Oh, Canada. I am joking of course, but your POTUS Trump believes that Canada as well as Mexico are great originators of fentanyl.
Inflating those gun violence figures for cities are people like Rittenhouse, who come to city from the country to shoot up citizens (OK, that effect is miniscule, but just saying).
In theory, going around carrying guns might be considered an arrestable offence in USA, but in practice too often it isn't.

 

[bilby]

an unarmed person who is precluded from owning or carrying any means by which to defend themselves?

<Removed by Moderator>

This utter nonsense always comes up in gun control "debates", and is wrong on every possible level; No non-American ever raises this "point"; It is pure gun-nut US brand grade 'A' propaganda.

<Removed by Moderator> and don't come back until you have grasped at the very least that self defence is not illegal anywhere in the developed world, and that firearms are not, and cannot be, defensive in nature.

The winner of a 'Mexican stand-off' is whoever shoots first; Which is why such things exist only in fiction.

That line of argument is a clear indication that the person making it has exactly zero clue, and has swallowed hook, line, and sinker the daft propaganda claim that a gun is not only a means of defence, but is the only means of defence.

Fuck, not to put too fine a point on it, off.

 

[bilby]

The vast majority of gun violence in the US is committed by criminals, not by law abiding citizens.

How could it possibly be otherwise?

That you consider this a point worth making shows just how hopelessly lost you are.