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NSFW: The latest tranche of Epstein evidence – in pictures

So you are claiming that Epstein was using the toys, handcuffs, and ball gags on consenting adults.
I'm not claiming anything about whether they were used on adults or minors or both. Is there evidence one way or another? I assumed it was the sight of the sex toys themselves that bothered you.

So you assumed I was bothered AND you assumed I was bothered by sex toys. You used an assumption to make an ad hom to what point? Defense of Epstein?

There are MLM schemes where women throw parties selling these sex toys. Its all fairly mainstream and out in the open these days (unless you're Amish).

Yes and there are penis cakes none of which has anything to do with the context of Epstein -- a man with a known predilection for teenage girls. Why are you removing the context?
So you're suggesting he's defending Epstein and therefore he's probably a secret paedophile?

There's a lot of this horseshit going on around this place, little sideways hints that some posters are total scumbags in hiding. It's getting fucked up.

No, I am hypothesizing that thebeave makes a lot of noise often for no apparent reason and this pattern seems to suggest obfuscation. Of course, it is just an hypothesis and usually Hanlon's Razor applies--that which can be explained by stupidity rather than malice. Thus, I ask a question of him and point out his assumptions. The thread is about Epstein and not me--there is ZERO reason for it to have become about me. So he has to explain himself.
 
So you assumed I was bothered AND you assumed I was bothered by sex toys. You used an assumption to make an ad hom to what point? Defense of Epstein?
It was the fact that you specifically cited "sex toys", i.e. to quote,

Uh, no. I did not initially write "sex toys" when you first chimed in. The full sentence is in your next quote:

"Some of these photos are of toys and other things...".

Again, no. That is indeed a sentence. It is a sentence within a paragraph. The paragraph has a topic sentence. The sentence that followed gives details of the topic sentence. Here is the full paragraph:
This isn't safe for work at all. Some of these photos are of toys and other things...

I am letting people know ahead of time what the NSFW contents are so that they can deduce when (or even if) they choose to look at the photos. I was being polite and giving details to the link, rather than just merely giving a link. Likewise, if I had not given the NSFW label to the thread title, someone could have clicked the link at work and then had these things on the computer at work. Possibly getting into trouble with HR, IT, etc etc.


The "non-sex toy" photos are just of fully clothed people (all of whom we already knew hung out with Epstein to some degree).

Which is why in the paragraph where I discussed the NSFW contents, i.e. the paragraph that began with topic sentence: "This isn't safe for work at all," I did not mention fully clothed people. Fully clothed people are not typically NSFW. Toys and gloves people use sexually are NSFW.

I'm not sure pictures of sex toys count as NSFW...maybe.

In many, perhaps most, places one works they would be NSFW. It is customary, polite, and acting in the best interest of forum participants to put such preventive label onto a thread so that the probability they could get into trouble is greatly reduced.

If there were nudity and sex scenes, you'd have a point. A funny looking black glove?...Meh.

It is clear from looking at the glove that the fingers provide some sexual stimulation to some people who use that toy. HOWEVER, you are now arguing something slightly different. Whether or not a thing is NSFW is a different dimension than whether or not I would be "bothered" (your word). So, if I had posted some bucket of photos that included nudes or sex scenes, then you could have equally said I was bothered by them. The level of personalization directed at my post was and remains unsubstantiated and distracting from valuable discussion. I hope you can understand your error and get back on track to the thread discussion.

ETA: Any sex toy experts here who can identify some of those items in the "erotic paraphenalia" picture? Like the chain with a couple of black tipped doohickies at the end? Or that bent piece of metal in front of the box? Or that thing with the pressure gauge? I'm starting to worry now that maybe I haven't really lived a fullfilling life?! :unsure:

One does not need to have used a ball gag to know what they are as they are common props in mature movies, like for example, Pulp Fiction. If you have not seen Pulp Fiction, they are in plenty of other movies.
 
Dershowitz was pretty connected too and I wonder if this is how he ended up on Trump's defense team.
Dershowitz admitted he got a massage but nothing more.

I had to google that:
AI Overview

Yes, attorney Alan Dershowitz has publicly admitted to receiving a massage at Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach mansion
. He has consistently stated the massage was from an adult woman, that he kept his underwear on during the session, and that he did not enjoy it.

The AI overview checks out. This sounds an awful lot like Bill Clinton smoking pot but not inhaling. I can't tell, though, which things are false, it's just they can't all be true.
 
Obviously, but Dershowitz was connected to Trump through Epstein's and other NY elites' parties.
Six degrees of Jeffrey Epstein? I would bet almost all "NY elites" (and plenty of non-elites) know a guy who knows a guy who knew Epstein. What does that prove?
So you are claiming that Epstein was using the toys, handcuffs, and ball gags on consenting adults.
No, but just having sex toys and novelty condoms does not in itself mean anything either.
 
Yes, actually, at this point I AM!
At this point you think everyone is a "pedophile" that you, by your own admission, want to exterminate.
Instead of having concerns over the fact that it does look like the island was a place for secret and private sexual activities, some of which apparently involved a dental chair surrounded by masks of historic dictators, we are just told to think these are innocent sex toys.
"Oh, you think the victims should have crooked teeth?"
That said, there's a new picture of Epstein hanging with Trump and Clinton and Prince Andrew, and I hope they all fucking burn.
Just having a photo taken with somebody is not evidence in participation in their illegal activities. I am sure that, say, Dennis Rader hung out and had photos taken with a bunch of people before he was caught.
 
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Obviously, but Dershowitz was connected to Trump through Epstein's and other NY elites' parties.
Six degrees of Jeffrey Epstein? I would bet almost all "NY elites" (and plenty of non-elites) know a guy who knows a guy who knew Epstein. What does that prove?

BUT your minimization is not at all what we are observing. The observation is that Dershowitz knew Epstein closely and Epstein knew Trump closely. In terms of degrees of separation we have:
Dershowitz <--closely knew--> Epstein
Epstein <--closely knew--> Trump
 
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I'm not sure pictures of sex toys count as NSFW
Do you work WITH sex toys?
If not, being caught with that picture on your computer will show that you are definatly NOT working. And probably earn you a trip to the HR office. It doesn't need to be discusting to be NSFW.
AD&D on your computer is NSFW.
No I don't work with sex toys. Whether something is NSFW is at the discretion of the employer. Some are more lax than others, which is why I used the word, Maybe (that you left off).
I used to work with a guy who was fired, went viral, and briefly made international news, because he was watching a perfectly normal broadcast TV program while he was working.


 
Just having a photo taken with somebody is not evidence in participation in their illegal activities.

I agree with this rule. For example, just because Epstein liked to have criminal sex with underage girls and Steve Bannon liked to fraudulently scam people, doesn't mean that when they were seen together in pictures at Epstein's Island or home or wherever that they were engaging in illegal activities. One could say it is a reasonable suspicion, especially if the nature of the crimes of the persons are compatible, but either way it would not be either a mathematical proof or a court proof beyond reasonable doubt.
 
Yes, I do think that people who regularly defend awful people in the course of awful things they do, are likely awful people.
Providing some nuance and rejecting your absolutist thinking is not "defending awful people".
The whole "15 isn't a 'child'" 'defense' is chief among these.
This is a good example of where you and your Ilk go off the rails.
Nobody is saying that abusing 15 years old is not a horrible thing, or that 30 or 40 or 50 year olds should have sex with 15 year olds, even when the 15 year old consents.

But somebody who is 15 is absolutely different than an actual child, and we do treat them differently in most contexts. We can, for example accept as normal that a 15 year old would be interested in sex, and even engage in sexual relations with a fellow teen. But if 8 year old children did that, even with each other, it would definitely not be normal.

And where do you draw a line? Is a 17 years 11 months old a "child" with no legitimate sexual agency and no ability to consent with an adult? Should her slightly older boyfriend (or his slightly older girlfriend for that matter, or any combination of sexes) be prosecuted and treated as a "pedophile" as soon as he celebrates his (or her) 18th birthday?
You can see where your absolutist thinking gets you nonsense outcomes.

Teenagerhood is a transitional, liminal stage between childhood and adulthood, and has elements of both. That's because human development is a continuum, with legal cutoffs somewhat arbitrary and differing by jurisdiction, as the different ages of consent even within the US show.
We are not like (some) insects who go through discontinuous stages of larva, pupa and adult. A 17 year old is not an undeveloped larvachild who makes him- or herself a chrysalis from which she emerges on his or her 18th birthday as a fully formed adult.

This is also relevant in areas that have nothing to do with sex. In the US, teenagers can drive at 16. They can work, with restrictions. There are debates to lower voting age to 16 for certain elections. We give teenagers more autonomy over their healthcare decisions that we give children. In Germany, a teenager can decide to exit a religious community they've been brought up in as early as 14 without consent of parents. Should all of those things be brought up to 18, because anybody below 18 is just a child and nothing more? Or even better 21, since 20 year olds are "children" according to some?
And you may not agree with this, but we charge minors in criminal court (usually referred to as "charge as adult") rather than juvenile/family court for serious crimes, because he realize that somebody who is 15 or 17 and commits crimes like robbery or murder does have significantly more criminal culpability than an actual child would. Not as much as an adult, sure, which is taken into account at sentencing, but certainly more than a child.
It is "flocking together", commonly done by "birds of a feather".
Nobody here is flocking together with the likes of Epstein, or defending what they did. But that does not mean that an 18 year old having sex with a 15 year old would be a pedophile or that he (or she) should be prosecuted and put on a sex offender registry either. Or that we should not prosecute minors in criminal court when they commit serious crimes.
I have not made any secret that I wish to do something very close to genocide with respect to ending long-term Solipsism and Nihilism and Fatalism entirely, forever, through education, opportunities, and family planning efforts: I wish to end the existence entirely of those who would place themselves above others, those who would burn the world, and those who would place others above the group, to free humanity forever of gods, masters, kings, and (jokers).
And who gets to decide who is deserving of being thus exterminated? A chistka tribunal headed by you? At this point, you are starting to legitimately scare me!
jonathan-crane-scarecrow.gif
 
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BUT your minimization is not at all what we are observing. The observation is that Dershowitz knew Epstein closely and Epstein knew Trump closely. In terms of degrees of separation we have:
Dershowitz <--closely knew--> Epstein
Epstein <--closely knew--> Trump
So what is all that supposed to prove again?
 
BUT your minimization is not at all what we are observing. The observation is that Dershowitz knew Epstein closely and Epstein knew Trump closely. In terms of degrees of separation we have:
Dershowitz <--closely knew--> Epstein
Epstein <--closely knew--> Trump
So what is all that supposed to prove again?

It proves you are minimizing the degree of separation and closeness of the relationships. This isn't "6 degrees" (your words) or "knows a guy who knows a guy who knows Epstein." Those are false implications about both the intensity of the knowing and the distance of the linkage. The question is why are you minimizing that?

To add--consider the Epstein Dershowitz timeline.

March 2005: Police start investigating Epstein for more than merely inappropriate behavior with underage girls involving massages at his home.
October 20, 2005: Police issue search warrant.
Late 2005: Dershowitz claimed during this time period he got a massage at Epstein's home, alleging it was by a middle aged woman.
November 2005: Police request arrest warrant but don't get it.
December 2005: Dershowitz joins Epstein's defense team.
July 2006: Epstein's indictment by a grand jury on a single count of solicitation of prostitution.
June 2008: Epstein pleads guilty to two state felony prostitution charges.

I believe prior to this it was known that Epstein "liked them young"--didn't Trump say that? And Trump allegedly kicked out Epstein from Mar-a-Lago for stealing underage masseuses/spa employees.

There is some ambiguity around exactly when "late 2005" is when Dershowitz received a massage he claims he didn't like.

At a minimum, it was before the police search warrant. So, at a minimum, he would have known the rumors. He would have also known Epstein was a sexual creep. So, if it were you. You were Dershowitz, would you get onto the used massage table? YES or NO?

Now, at a maximum, late 2005 could mean after the search warrant in Nov 2005. So it would be very clear that the allegations were there. Dershowitz certainly wouldn't have gotten on the massage table at that point, right?
 
At a minimum, it was before the police search warrant. So, at a minimum, he would have known the rumors. He would have also known Epstein was a sexual creep. So, if it were you. You were Dershowitz, would you get onto the used massage table? YES or NO?

While Derec is thinking about how to answer this question, I will just add that (1) Virginia Giuffre accused Dershowitz; (2) an employee of Epstein said he saw Dershowitz at Epstein's home several times getting massages and (3) Dershowitz actually has changed his story.

Dershowitz originally claimed he never got a massage. For example, see here where he is quoted about the allegations made by Giuffre and former Epstein employee Alessi:
Daily News. Thu, Jan 22, 2015 ·Page 5
Dershowitz said the statements are "all lies, " and "I never got a massage from anybody. It's made up out of whole cloth."

However, the next day in an interview he changed his story:
In an interview the following day on Local 10 News, he said, “I kept my underwear on during the massage.”

Dershowitz said he received one massage at Epstein’s house “from a woman in her 40s. I think her name was Olga. I called my wife after getting the massage. It was an unpleasant experience. I’ve always acknowledged I had one massage. I said that from day one.”

In 2018, he tells a different story:
Dershowitz had been friendly with Epstein prior, according to Axios. He told the news site that he got a “therapeutic massage” — from an of-age “old Russian” woman — at Epstein’s Palm Beach mansion.

“What happened was I, um, he lent us, this was well before any of this thing came out, --

*FULL STOP* whether the information came out or not, there were still rumors. It was still known and if he was that close to Epstein he would have known about the rumors.

--he lent us his house once,” he said. “And I was there, my grandchildren were there, my daughter was there, and we all got massages.”

He continued: “Believe me, if I had known that anything improper had ever taken place in that house, I never would have allowed my children, my grandchildren, my wife, my daughter-in-law, my son, to have spent time there. I can tell you categorically there were no inappropriate pictures, no inappropriate anythings. It was like any other house.”

It's kind of odd that with all the people there in the house that he would call his wife on the phone afterward... unless they all went shopping or something while he got his massage. Who knows. It certainly sounds like a third version, though.
 
So you are claiming that Epstein was using the toys, handcuffs, and ball gags on consenting adults.
I'm not claiming anything about whether they were used on adults or minors or both. Is there evidence one way or another? I assumed it was the sight of the sex toys themselves that bothered you. There are MLM schemes where women throw parties selling these sex toys. Its all fairly mainstream and out in the open these days (unless you're Amish).
I thought it was just that the images of sex toys would not be seen as appropriate in most work places.

I doubt that anyone here is upset about what happens between consenting adults—so long as no minors or non-consenting people are involved.
 
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