George Zimmerman Arrested On Domestic Violence And Weapons Charge

[Derec]

Two recent things about the Trayvon Martin case:
MSNBC's Melissa Harris-Perry Hopes Trayvon Martin 'Whooped The S*** Out Of George Zimmerman'

Is she too stupid to realize that she is hoping that Z had a good reason to fear for his life and use deadly force in self defense? Or does she just not care?

Attorney General Eric Holder: Fed standards 'too high' in civil rights cases

Eric Holder wants to lower the burden of proof for federal civil rights cases. What is it with the Obama administration and lowering burden of proof for political reasons?

 

[laughing dog]

Two recent things about the Trayvon Martin case:
MSNBC's Melissa Harris-Perry Hopes Trayvon Martin 'Whooped The S*** Out Of George Zimmerman'

Is she too stupid to realize that she is hoping that Z had a good reason to fear for his life and use deadly force in self defense? Or does she just not care?

Or maybe since Martin is dead and Zimmerman is completely off the hook for criminal charges, her sense of justice requires that Zimmerman at least got severely beaten. It isn't a very clever or tactful statement. But is a human one.

T
Attorney General Eric Holder: Fed standards 'too high' in civil rights cases

Eric Holder wants to lower the burden of proof for federal civil rights cases. What is it with the Obama administration and lowering burden of proof for political reasons?

I think reasonable people can disagree over the proper standard of proof for "intent" and that such a disagreement need not necessarily be driven by "political" reasons. Why do you assume that someone who has had experience in actually dealing with these cases whose ideas for improvement is necessarily motivated by politics when you don't even know what the suggestions for improvement are?

 

[Mumbles]

Two recent things about the Trayvon Martin case:
MSNBC's Melissa Harris-Perry Hopes Trayvon Martin 'Whooped The S*** Out Of George Zimmerman'

Is she too stupid to realize that she is hoping that Z had a good reason to fear for his life and use deadly force in self defense? Or does she just not care?

Saw it. Fully agree with her. Of course, it looks like he didn't, but ah, well. But yeah, Derec, if some random dude starts following you in his car, and then gets out and chases you down the street, and refuses to announce his intentions, and then apparently puts his hands on you, I hope you beat the shit out of that guy too.

 

[RavenSky]

Funny how Derec leaves out the context of what MHP actually said:

"I hope [Martin] tried to stay alive. I hope he knew that he lived in a state with a 'Stand Your Ground’ law. And I hope he whooped the shit out of George Zimmerman," Harris-Perry said. "And it’s not disreputable because he encountered a stranger who was prepared to kill him, and you know how I know? Because he killed him."

 

[ZiprHead]

Isn't Zimmerman about due for another blow-up by now?

 

[Derec]

Funny how Derec leaves out the context of what MHP actually said:

"I hope [Martin] tried to stay alive. I hope he knew that he lived in a state with a 'Stand Your Ground’ law. And I hope he whooped the shit out of George Zimmerman," Harris-Perry said. "And it’s not disreputable because he encountered a stranger who was prepared to kill him, and you know how I know? Because he killed him."

I did not leave it out. I said that she is either too stupid to realize or just doesn't care that Trayvon pummeling Z was what led to Z shooting Trayvon in self defense. Her scenario, where Z wanted to kill him no matter what and Trayvon at least got some good licks in is the kind of ridiculous fantasy one believes in when one lives in an echo chamber.
Tell me that this is not what you actually believe RavenSky.

 

[Derec]

Saw it. Fully agree with her. Of course, it looks like he didn't, but ah, well. But yeah, Derec, if some random dude starts following you in his car, and then gets out and chases you down the street, and refuses to announce his intentions, and then apparently puts his hands on you,

There is no evidence Z put his hands on Trayvon first. But I didn't want to re-argue the case itself (last 100+ pages of this thread are more than enough of that), but just wanted to point out to the stupidity of MPH who hopes Trayvon beat up Z even though it's precisely that which gave Z justification to shoot. In other words, she is hoping that Z was justified in shooting Trayvon if we logically follow it.

I hope you beat the shit out of that guy too.

Do you hope I get shot?

 

[Derec]

Or maybe since Martin is dead and Zimmerman is completely off the hook for criminal charges, her sense of justice requires that Zimmerman at least got severely beaten. It isn't a very clever or tactful statement. But is a human one.

I can follow why she said it on an emotional level, even if makes no logical sense. And since she wasn't speaking extemporaneously but was giving a prepared speech she should have considered what she said more closely. And the clear logic is that if what she hopes happened happened (Trayvon beating the shit out of Z) then Z acted in self defense, was justified in shooting Trayvon and thus Z should be off the hook criminally and otherwise in this case. In the end, she thus hopes that her Trayvon-based activism of the last 3 years was in vain because he was the aggressor, not the victim.

I think reasonable people can disagree over the proper standard of proof for "intent" and that such a disagreement need not necessarily be driven by "political" reasons. Why do you assume that someone who has had experience in actually dealing with these cases whose ideas for improvement is necessarily motivated by politics when you don't even know what the suggestions for improvement are?

It sounds to me more like a case of sour grapes - he wanted to charge Z with federal "civil rights"crimes but could not because there wasn't evidence that he acted out of a racial animus. So he wants to change the rules to make such prosecutions possible even without such evidence. I think that would be a very dangerous development.

 

[laughing dog]

I can follow why she said it on an emotional level, even if makes no logical sense. And since she wasn't speaking extemporaneously but was giving a prepared speech she should have considered what she said more closely. And the clear logic is that if what she hopes happened happened (Trayvon beating the shit out of Z) then Z acted in self defense, was justified in shooting Trayvon and thus Z should be off the hook criminally and otherwise in this case.

No, it could be that she thinks Zimmerman was the aggressor and that if Martin had beaten the shit out of Zimmerman, he'd still be alive and her version of justice would be done.

 

[ZiprHead]

There is no evidence Z put his hands on Trayvon first.

I think Jeantel's testimony made it pretty clear Zimmerman DID attack TM first.

 

[RavenSky]

Funny how Derec leaves out the context of what MHP actually said:

"I hope [Martin] tried to stay alive. I hope he knew that he lived in a state with a 'Stand Your Ground’ law. And I hope he whooped the shit out of George Zimmerman," Harris-Perry said. "And it’s not disreputable because he encountered a stranger who was prepared to kill him, and you know how I know? Because he killed him."

I did not leave it out. I said that she is either too stupid to realize or just doesn't care that Trayvon pummeling Z was what led to Z shooting Trayvon in self defense. Her scenario, where Z wanted to kill him no matter what and Trayvon at least got some good licks in is the kind of ridiculous fantasy one believes in when one lives in an echo chamber.
Tell me that this is not what you actually believe RavenSky.

I will repeat: I hope [Martin] tried to stay alive.

Trayvon Martin had the right of self-defense. Zimmerman went after Trayvon, and then killed Trayvon. MHP hopes that Trayvon did try to fight back against Zimmerman's aggression (even though there is no evidence that Trayvon was able to). Whether he did or he didn't, that doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman went after Trayvon and killed Trayvon. period. end of discussion.

 

[bigfield]

Two recent things about the Trayvon Martin case:
MSNBC's Melissa Harris-Perry Hopes Trayvon Martin 'Whooped The S*** Out Of George Zimmerman'

Is she too stupid to realize that she is hoping that Z had a good reason to fear for his life and use deadly force in self defense? Or does she just not care?

She probably doesn't care. And why should she? Zimmermann started the fight, therefore the outcome of the fight is his fault. Any ass-kicking he got before he escalated the fight to a shooting was thoroughly deserved and makes him no less culpable.

 

[Arctish]

Two recent things about the Trayvon Martin case:
MSNBC's Melissa Harris-Perry Hopes Trayvon Martin 'Whooped The S*** Out Of George Zimmerman'

Is she too stupid to realize that she is hoping that Z had a good reason to fear for his life and use deadly force in self defense? Or does she just not care?

She probably doesn't care. And why should she? Zimmermann started the fight, therefore the outcome of the fight is his fault. Any ass-kicking he got before he escalated the fight to a shooting was thoroughly deserved and makes him no less culpable.

Perhaps she is hoping that Z had a good reason to fear for his life and use deadly force in self defense, because otherwise it means Zimmerman did not have a good reason to use deadly force, which makes the murder of Trayvon Martin and the glorification of his killer that much more awful.

 

[Mumbles]

Do you hope I get shot?

No, I would hope you would win the fight walking away, and the other person would be dazed but fine. Why?

Well, first of all, no rational, good willed adult would spot a stranger, follow them in their car, and then jump out and run after that person after they ran away from them. That, alone, is good reason for the other person to worry for their safety. Any intelligent person, at least where I'm from, would recognize this as a threat. That's why normal people never do this, unless the other person had dropped something - and even then, the normal behavior is to openly hold whatever was dropped in front of you and shout "Excuse me, sir/ma'am! You dropped something!"

Second, I'm fine with any person answering a threat like that. Regardless of whether Zimmerman grabbed Martin, or just stuffed his hand into his pocket, which was his story - after all that, both mean that the other person would be presenting themselves as even more of a threat. At that point, you have been entered into a street fight. And at that point, sure, I hope you win, because you didn't start it.

 

[coloradoatheist]

There is no evidence Z put his hands on Trayvon first.

I think Jeantel's testimony made it pretty clear Zimmerman DID attack TM first.

Nope. Jeantel guessed and speculated the same way we did. Her testimony changed at different times and she could only say I think that Z tried to do something.

 

[Arctish]

I think Jeantel's testimony made it pretty clear Zimmerman DID attack TM first.

Nope. Jeantel guessed and speculated the same way we did. Her testimony changed at different times and she could only say I think that Z tried to do something.

Her testimony didn't change. She told the court what she heard, when she heard it, and what she believed it meant. She was saying the same things at the end of her testimony that she said at the start. Yes, she believed Zimmerman assaulted Martin, and as she told the court, what she heard that night supported that belief.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Nope. Jeantel guessed and speculated the same way we did. Her testimony changed at different times and she could only say I think that Z tried to do something.

Her testimony didn't change. She told the court what she heard, when she heard it, and what she believed it meant. She was saying the same things at the end of her testimony that she said at the start.

She said she heard a bump, followed by them hitting the ground (infamous wet grass sound) followed by the get off get off. There was contention on whether she first said she didn't know who said get off get, but that's minor. On the stand she said she thought Z might have hitten M first, but didn't know. On her interviews after the trial she said she believed that Martin hit Z first because she thought like some people that maybe Z tried to detain him. She didn't know. From the place of the two exchanging words to them fighting she could only guess what happened.

 

[arkirk]

You know, this Zimmerman continuing story brings us a question. Do we remember O.J. and how he just kept getting in trouble? It was always hard to decide if he really was doing something really violative when he would get arrested again or were the cops out to get him? If he got away with murder, wouldn't he try to stay under the radar and behave himself? He didn't and ended up in prison. So the question comes up again. Isn't he in jail for the murders on a surrogate charge? Zimmerman and O.J. have this similarity...they just keep turning up in troubles that point toward them being violent offenders...and if their cases go to trial, isn't the juries in these cases apt to find him guilty because they figured he should be in prison for the previous charges. I am sure a jurror can get under the wire for his previous opinions by just lying a bit.

The evidence I saw pointed to Zimmerman having murdered Martin. The evidence in O.J.'s case looked the same. The question is do these guys just have the distinction of being born under an unlucky star, or did they continue to blaze their trail to prison or are they just being hounded by some cops who want them in jail? All of these things are possibilities.

 

[Arctish]

Her testimony didn't change. She told the court what she heard, when she heard it, and what she believed it meant. She was saying the same things at the end of her testimony that she said at the start.

She said she heard a bump, followed by them hitting the ground (infamous wet grass sound) followed by the get off get off.

She thought the wet grass sounds might have been sounds of running feet moving through the wet grass, not Martin and Zimmerman hitting the ground. The "get off, get off" sounds were faint, as though from a distance.

There was contention on whether she first said she didn't know who said get off get, but that's minor. On the stand she said she thought Z might have hitten M first, but didn't know. On her interviews after the trial she said she believed that Martin hit Z first because she thought like some people that maybe Z tried to detain him. She didn't know. From the place of the two exchanging words to them fighting she could only guess what happened.

Yes, she said she didn't know who struck first. She said she believed Martin was trying to run away again when the phone dropped and she heard the wet grass sounds, and that Martin was shouting "get off, get off" because Zimmerman had grabbed him, but she couldn't say exactly what happened because she could only hear them, not see them.

 

[coloradoatheist]

She said she heard a bump, followed by them hitting the ground (infamous wet grass sound) followed by the get off get off.

She thought the wet grass sounds might have been sounds of running feet moving through the wet grass, not Martin and Zimmerman hitting the ground. The "get off, get off" sounds were faint, as though from a distance.

There was contention on whether she first said she didn't know who said get off get, but that's minor. On the stand she said she thought Z might have hitten M first, but didn't know. On her interviews after the trial she said she believed that Martin hit Z first because she thought like some people that maybe Z tried to detain him. She didn't know. From the place of the two exchanging words to them fighting she could only guess what happened.

Yes, she said she didn't know who struck first. She said she believed Martin was trying to run away again when the phone dropped and she heard the wet grass sounds, and that Martin was shouting "get off, get off" because Zimmerman had grabbed him, but she couldn't say exactly what happened because she could only hear them, not see them.

She was asked what she meant by wet grass and she said two people rolling around in the grass. So we have rolling around in the grass, which is consistent with Z's testimony followed by get off which she originally said it might have been Martin but she didn't know. And then on her interviews she said that Martin most likely threw the first punch, different than what she said on the stand.