Legal definition of woman is based on biological sex, UK supreme court rules

[Politesse]

Men commit violent and sexual crimes at a far higher rate than women, and have a far higher prevalence of paraphilia.

Is this news to you?

That is absolutely true, and I have not denied it at any point.

 

[seanie]

Using sex to discriminate between different classes of citizens, and assigning them different and unequal rights, is most certainly sexism. One of the most dangerous forms of sexism.

So no single sex spaces at all?

No single sex prisons, changing rooms, showers, restrooms, sports, hospital wards, intimate care, rape crisis counselling services, not anything?

Good luck arguing that as a policy.

I haven't argued for any such thing. Only, as always, equal protection under the law for all citizens. Which is. Believe it or not, not my original idea, but a 150 year old idea that has many times over saved my country from utter implosion and destruction.

So explain why you simultaneously decry discriminating on the basis of sex, whilst not arguing for the abolition of single sex spaces?

Have you thought this through at all?

Becasue legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong. What more do you want? It's not discrimination to have a Honda Civic car club. It's discrimination to outlaw Subaru Outback car clubs.

So you do think single sex prisons, changing rooms, showers, restrooms, sports, hospital wards, intimate care, and rape crisis counselling services, are wrong.

Your defence is that you’ve never argued the position you actually hold.



That’s hilarious.

 

[TomC]

Men commit violent and sexual crimes at a far higher rate than women, and have a far higher prevalence of paraphilia.

Is this news to you?

He's from California.
Can't expect everything...
Tom

 

[seanie]

I might never stop laughing.

 

[Politesse]

So you do think single sex prisons, changing rooms, showers, restrooms, sports, hospital wards, intimate care, and rape crisis counselling services, are wrong.

I said literally the opposite of that. Again: it's not discrimination to have a Honda Civic car club. It's discrimination to outlaw Subaru Outback car clubs.

 

[bigfield]

What if the man is the service provider who owns the men's restroom, and operates it on the basis of sex?

If the service provider has male and female facilities, as a matter of law their policy has to be based on biological sex. That’s not a choice.

Do you think that's the way it should be?

Do you think it would be better or worse if restroom policy were based on a person's gender instead of their sex?

But as pointed out before, public restrooms are relatively unmanaged spaces. There’s nobody on reception before you can enter. So the extent to which such an issue would be policed is doubtful. That won’t be the case in other situations.

What's stopping a person from going in the wrong restroom?

What difficulty would it cause, and whom would it cause difficulty for? I initially thought that you meant it would cause difficulty for some women, but you said that’s wrong.

No.

There are some circumstances where many women want spaces free from men for reasons of privacy, dignity, safety, or fairness. A trans man who convincingly passed, and as such was perceived to be male, could cause the same discomfort to those women as a man, because they’d perceive them as a man.

Are women's restrooms one of those circumstances?

 

[laughing dog]

That’s very big of you.

Thanks.

You’re welcome.

 

[seanie]

I said literally the opposite of that.

Well, you said “legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong.”

If legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong, how can you still think single sex spaces justified?

Explain.

 

[seanie]

Without reference to Honda civics or Subarus.

 

[seanie]

What if the man is the service provider who owns the men's restroom, and operates it on the basis of sex?

If the service provider has male and female facilities, as a matter of law their policy has to be based on biological sex. That’s not a choice.

Do you think that's the way it should be?

Do you think it would be better or worse if restroom policy were based on a person's gender instead of their sex?

But as pointed out before, public restrooms are relatively unmanaged spaces. There’s nobody on reception before you can enter. So the extent to which such an issue would be policed is doubtful. That won’t be the case in other situations.

What's stopping a person from going in the wrong restroom?

What difficulty would it cause, and whom would it cause difficulty for? I initially thought that you meant it would cause difficulty for some women, but you said that’s wrong.

No.

There are some circumstances where many women want spaces free from men for reasons of privacy, dignity, safety, or fairness. A trans man who convincingly passed, and as such was perceived to be male, could cause the same discomfort to those women as a man, because they’d perceive them as a man.

Are women's restrooms one of those circumstances?

Yes.

Worse for women, much of a muchness for men.

Not much beyond social convention as I’ve made clear.

Possibly.

 

[seanie]

Again, as I’ve said repeatedly, the issue is asymmetrical.

Males in female only spaces are a bigger issue than females in male only spaces.

Many women have good reason to feel uncomfortable or distressed in the presence of males in some circumstances. They have very good reasons for not wanting to compete against males in most sports.

Is the same true in reverse?

Not really.

So keeping males out of female spaces is a proportionate and legitimate aim. Keeping females out of “male” spaces may not be.

As in sports, the options of female only, and open/unisex/gender neutral spaces may suffice.

 

[Politesse]

I said literally the opposite of that.

Well, you said “legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong.”

If legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong, how can you still think single sex spaces justified?

Explain.

Because single sex spaces do not, in and of themselves, represent discriminate and unequal treatment under the law.

 

[Toni]

”Male instincts”??????

Do I need to explain the concept?
Tom

Yes, I think that you do because I’m not at all certain what you are talking about.

Men are the pervy, rapey, violent sex.

I realize that it will take some nuance and context to understand the men are the pervy rapey people sex, of the two, but that's exactly what I am talking about.

If you don't understand that, then I am not much interested in going on with your education. I don't think you are willing to understand.
Tom

That is not true of all men and it is true of some women. In general, men tend to be taller and have more upper body strength but that is also not universally true.

Believe it or not: women also have sex drives and sometimes as strong or stronger than the average man's or her male partner's. I'm not certain what you mean by pervy but yes, plenty of women like porn, even the grosser stuff, and some women molest or even rape minors. It is less common or less commonly recognized than for men and is likely due to a mixture of biology and socialization. Same thing with violence--partly biology but also strongly socialization. And choice. We all have choices.

I just don't think things are as black and white or male/female as your response implies.

 

[seanie]

Because single sex spaces do not, in and of themselves, represent discriminate and unequal treatment under the law.

But you said “legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong”.

Single sex spaces discriminate on the basis of sex.

 

[Politesse]

Because single sex spaces do not, in and of themselves, represent discriminate and unequal treatment under the law.

But you said “legal discrimination on the basis of sex is wrong”.

Single sex spaces discriminate on the basis of sex.

Again, no, they don't. I can have a town cherry festival and that is not fruit discrimination. What is fruit discrimination is if I try to pass a law at the state level to shut down the neighboring village's peach festival without their consent.

Although I find it fascinating and disturbing that you, supposedly not only a feminist but the spokesperson for how all women think and feel, think that (a) all forms of recognition are legal discrimination, and (b) that's what actually you want and are arguing for.

Do you really believe that in a state which allows for separate and unequal rights for men, women, and others, that women will end up ahead? Have you never read a history book?

 

[Bomb#20]

View attachment 50990

I have no talent for cartooning so this will have to do. The baseball game labeled "Justice" would look more like this:

 

[seanie]

Of course single sex spaces discriminate on the basis of sex, just as single gender spaces would discriminate the basis of gender.

Such spaces operate by banning a particular class of people, discriminating them from another group.

 

[Politesse]

Of course single sex spaces discriminate on the basis of sex, just as single gender spaces would discriminate the basis of gender.

Such spaces operate by banning a particular class of people, discriminating them from another group.

And you consider yourself a supporter of sex discrimination?

 

[Toni]

View attachment 50990

I have no talent for cartooning so this will have to do. The baseball game labeled "Justice" would look more like this:

Really?

 

[seanie]

And you consider yourself a supporter of sex discrimination?

In some circumstances? Of course.

Such as women’s prisons, changing rooms, intimate healthcare provision, sports etc.