George Zimmerman Arrested On Domestic Violence And Weapons Charge

[dx713]

The lengths people will go to in order to blame an innocent teenager for his own death while excusing an aggressive violent killer is just disgusting

Pointing out how taking a different action on part of either party could have avoided the event is hardly blaming anyone, it's a fact. It's no more disgusting than suggesting that Zimmerman caused the chain of events by leaving his car.

Yes it is.
It is blaming the victim for not having had the omniscient knowledge he was not to follow a safety rule this time, it is blaming a teenager who didn't scrupulously followned social etiquette rules for the place that a lot of adults would have fumbled with too for his own death, while absolving the grown man who had no reason to feel threatened before leaving his car.

I don't understand how you can have so many adults in the US, with so many of you insisting that being a clueless teenager is a crime punishable by death...

 

[Jayjay]

Well, no. The reason that Zimmerman should not have suspected Martin to be a burglar is that he had no evidence that Martin was a burglar. Martin had clear evidence that Zimmerman was stalking him - and we know that he didn't want to lead Zimmerman to his home, because to essentially told Rachel Jeantel this.

Really? When did he tell that to Rachel, was that before or after he told her that he was almost home already? Based on her testimony, it seems that Martin thought he had evaded Zimmerman and had relaxed already because he and Jeantel started talking about basketball.

Simply appearing to be a stalker to someone doesn't mean that there is a real threat. Just like behaving like a burglar doesn't mean that one is a burglar.

But of course Zimmerman would not be any threat to Martin, had he realized that Martin lived in the neighbourhood, so in this case, not following that rule would have been the best course of action for Martin. It's an entirely different matter whether that would be a good idea in general case for Martin.

As Rhea said, you are asking Martin to depend on the good sense of a man who is clearly an aggressive idiot.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I am just saying that in this particular case he would have been fine.

 

[Jayjay]

Pointing out how taking a different action on part of either party could have avoided the event is hardly blaming anyone, it's a fact. It's no more disgusting than suggesting that Zimmerman caused the chain of events by leaving his car.

Yes it is.
It is blaming the victim for not having had the omniscient knowledge he was not to follow a safety rule this time,

We don't know if he was following that rule anyway.

it is blaming a teenager who didn't scrupulously followned social etiquette rules for the place that a lot of adults would have fumbled with too for his own death, while absolving the grown man who had no reason to feel threatened before leaving his car.

I don't understand how you can have so many adults in the US, with so many of you insisting that being a clueless teenager is a crime punishable by death...

It shouldn't be, any more than leaving one's car ought to be a crime punishable by death.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Simply appearing to be a stalker to someone doesn't mean that there is a real threat.

But deliberately following someone on their route usually is a good sign.

 

[dx713]

(...)

it is blaming a teenager who didn't scrupulously followned social etiquette rules for the place that a lot of adults would have fumbled with too for his own death, while absolving the grown man who had no reason to feel threatened before leaving his car.

I don't understand how you can have so many adults in the US, with so many of you insisting that being a clueless teenager is a crime punishable by death...

It shouldn't be, any more than leaving one's car ought to be a crime punishable by death.

I don't see who's arguing for that.
Do you mean you have some information that didn't reach me that Martin was waiting with a lethal weapon, ready to kill as soon as Zimmerman would step on the sidewalk?

 

[laughing dog]

I don't understand how you can have so many adults in the US, with so many of you insisting that being a clueless black male teenager is a crime punishable by death...

Does that make it easier to understand?

 

[Rhea]

This is based on all of the other reasonable actions Zimmerman took that night?

I mean, seriously?

You think he'd all of a sudden stop acting like a fucking hero-wannabe creeper douchebag and suddenly go all, "I'll just wait here quietly till the cops arrive"?

You think that because Zimmerman would follow a burglar with is car, he would force his way into one of his neighbours' houses also? That doesn't follow at all. Besides, he was waiting quietly at the T was what Zimmerman did up until the point he met Trayvon again.

I don't have to "think" anything. We all know that Zimmerman got a gun, followed a kid for no reason, first in a car, then on foot, and shot him dead. We already know - for certain - that Zimmerman was willing to follow this kid for a long time and between buildings. And Martin knew that, too.

Some people think that despite having a guy follow you in a car and then on foot, in the dark, in the rain, into an alleyway behind buildings, you should not feel alarmed, you should assume he lives there and is "up to some good" and you should politely ask the guy if he's an authority figure while you lead him to your home. And they think that somehow magically, Zimmerman would have instantly believed you and said, "hey welcome to the neighborhood" and let you keep going.

Because.... because Zimmerman is so known for that. Or some equally vacuous thing that continues to paint Z as a guy who does nothing to create this incident.


Some people think Martin should have ignored "urban rule #1" is reasonable while Zimmerman staying in his car is not reasonable. The inevitability of the victim having to face the aggressor because that is the way it ought to happen, right?

As lonn as we are talking general rules (such as "Urban Rule #1"), saying that Zimmerman should have stayed in his car is not reasonable. People have the right to wander abou their neighbourhoods, and they have right to keep an eye on people they suspect might be burglars. There is no rule that at all times, everyone should stay in their F*ing vehicles. If Trayvon had been a real burglar, Zimmerman getting out of his truck to have a better view would have been examplary (just looking through... apart from him shooting Trayvon and possibly trying to detain him later).

You bait and switch between reasonable and has-a-right.

Martin had a right to walk, and it was reasonable for him to avoid the creeper and not lead him home.
Zimmerman had a right to stay in his truck and it was NOT reasonable for him to take a weapon and pretend he was a cop closely following a person he thought (wrongly, as it turn out) was a burglar.

Zimmerman had a "right" to walk around the neighborhood, technically, even though, he was trained by NW that this was a BAD IDEA and told by dispatch that this was NOT NEEDED - hence his actions were NOT reasonable. And the moment he confronted Martin (and probably grabbed him) he no longer had any "right" to those actions.

Martin, meanwhile had a "right" to defend himself against the creeper following him and grabbing him. He was reasonable in trying to get away, and reasonable not leading the guy home.


So the bait and switch doesn't work. The two sets of rights and reasonable actions tell the story, and it does not favor the guy who is once again in the public eye for being a violent aggressor.

 

[EPresence2]

This is based on all of the other reasonable actions Zimmerman took that night?

I mean, seriously?

You think he'd all of a sudden stop acting like a fucking hero-wannabe creeper douchebag and suddenly go all, "I'll just wait here quietly till the cops arrive"?

You think that because Zimmerman would follow a burglar with is car, he would force his way into one of his neighbours' houses also? That doesn't follow at all. Besides, he was waiting quietly at the T was what Zimmerman did up until the point he met Trayvon again.

It only makes "sense" when you speculate beyond the facts; assuming a level of escalation beyond what is consistent with GZ's history. This bares repeating...

Why someone is trying to argue on the basis of a person's thoughts, which we can never know, is a mystery to me. It's like a strange grasping for justification.

Thought being assumed: I will stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of intention to burglarize?) doesn't get away... while the police are coming to meet me."

 

[Rhea]

You think that because Zimmerman would follow a burglar with is car, he would force his way into one of his neighbours' houses also? That doesn't follow at all. Besides, he was waiting quietly at the T was what Zimmerman did up until the point he met Trayvon again.

It only makes "sense" when you speculate beyond the facts; assuming a level of escalation beyond what is consistent with GZ's history. This bares repeating...

Why someone is trying to argue on the basis of a person's thoughts, which we can never know, is a mystery to me. It's like a strange grasping for justification.

Thought being assumed: I will stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of intention to burglarize?) doesn't get away... while the police are coming to meet me."

No assumption necessary. He TOLD dispatch at 311 that he felt Martin would try to get away, he TOLD dispatch that he objected to that, he TOLD dispatch that he would not remain with his truck while he waited for them.

Zimmerman's own words and actions confirm it, no assumption required.

 

[EPresence2]

It only makes "sense" when you speculate beyond the facts; assuming a level of escalation beyond what is consistent with GZ's history. This bares repeating...

Why someone is trying to argue on the basis of a person's thoughts, which we can never know, is a mystery to me. It's like a strange grasping for justification.

Thought being assumed: I will stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of intention to burglarize?) doesn't get away... while the police are coming to meet me."

No assumption necessary. He TOLD dispatch at 311 that he felt Martin would try to get away, he TOLD dispatch that he objected to that, he TOLD dispatch that he would not remain with his truck while he waited for them.

Zimmerman's own words and actions confirm it, no assumption required.

Sanity check: you are responding to the assumption GZ would have entered a house to attempt detaining Martin based on the statement "these assholes always get away." You ARE assuming that GZ would stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of drug possession and intention to burglarize?) didn't get away... while the police were coming to meet him. Where did Zimmy say "My intention is to detain the suspect?" I also reviewed Rachel's testimony again and she wasn't sure who was saying "Get off! Get off!" (at first). That statement was heard while the phone was laying in the grass. The phone hit the grass after the exchange of words; not sure why she wasn't sure during her first interview.

I'm still not sure Zimmy was that stupid and aggressive. You are, and you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[laughing dog]

It only makes "sense" when you speculate beyond the facts; assuming a level of escalation beyond what is consistent with GZ's history. This bares repeating...

Why someone is trying to argue on the basis of a person's thoughts, which we can never know, is a mystery to me. It's like a strange grasping for justification.

Thought being assumed: I will stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of intention to burglarize?) doesn't get away... while the police are coming to meet me."

No assumption necessary. He TOLD dispatch at 311 that he felt Martin would try to get away, he TOLD dispatch that he objected to that, he TOLD dispatch that he would not remain with his truck while he waited for them.

Zimmerman's own words and actions confirm it, no assumption required.

Sanity check: you are responding to the assumption GZ would have entered a house to attempt detaining Martin based on the statement "these assholes always get away." You ARE assuming that GZ would stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of drug possession and intention to burglarize?) didn't get away... while the police were coming to meet him. Where did Zimmy say "My intention is to detain the suspect?" I also reviewed Rachel's testimony again and she wasn't sure who was saying "Get off! Get off!" (at first). That statement was heard while the phone was laying in the grass.

I'm still not sure Zimmy was that stupid and aggressive. You are, and you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

ZImmerman's history proves it beyond a reasonable doubt to me.

 

[Nexus]

I'm still not sure Zimmy was that stupid and aggressive. You are, and you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman assaulted an undercover cop before he killed Martin. Yes Zimmerman is that stupid and aggressive and all the other domestic violence and road rage incidents also demonstrate Zimmerman is stupid and aggressive.

 

[Nexus]

How many pro-Zimmerman posters would like to make a bet whether or not Zimmerman will have another incident within the next three years? Since you're all certain of his upstanding character it shouldn't be any risk.

 

[Toni]

It only makes "sense" when you speculate beyond the facts; assuming a level of escalation beyond what is consistent with GZ's history. This bares repeating...

Why someone is trying to argue on the basis of a person's thoughts, which we can never know, is a mystery to me. It's like a strange grasping for justification.

Thought being assumed: I will stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of intention to burglarize?) doesn't get away... while the police are coming to meet me."

No assumption necessary. He TOLD dispatch at 311 that he felt Martin would try to get away, he TOLD dispatch that he objected to that, he TOLD dispatch that he would not remain with his truck while he waited for them.

Zimmerman's own words and actions confirm it, no assumption required.

Sanity check: you are responding to the assumption GZ would have entered a house to attempt detaining Martin based on the statement "these assholes always get away." You ARE assuming that GZ would stop at nothing to ensure that a suspect (of drug possession and intention to burglarize?) didn't get away... while the police were coming to meet him. Where did Zimmy say "My intention is to detain the suspect?" I also reviewed Rachel's testimony again and she wasn't sure who was saying "Get off! Get off!" (at first). That statement was heard while the phone was laying in the grass. The phone hit the grass after the exchange of words; not sure why she wasn't sure during her first interview.

I'm still not sure Zimmy was that stupid and aggressive. You are, and you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think you make a pretty good point. Personally, I don't think that Zimmerman would have followed Martin into a house or any other building or place where there might be other people who could give aid to Martin, who was being stalked by a dangerous armed stranger and could have served as witnesses if Quick Draw Zimmerman fired off a shot or two before they could intervene, although frankly, given Zimmerman's mind set, it is more likely he would have worried that there would be someone inside who would take exception to Zimmerman's actions. It is always a risk to run your prey to their home ground.

Excellent point.

 

[Rhea]

I'm still not sure Zimmy was that stupid and aggressive. You are, and you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman assaulted an undercover cop before he killed Martin. Yes Zimmerman is that stupid and aggressive and all the other domestic violence and road rage incidents also demonstrate Zimmerman is stupid and aggressive.

...an undercover cop that he thought was a bouncer carding Zimmerman's underage friend. SO EVEN IF he KNOWS that the person is in a position of authority, most likely strong and hired to deal with aggressive drunks AND dealing with a person that Zimmerman KNOWS is IN THE WRONG, Zimmerman will still attack.

Still defending this guy as an "I'll wait quietly for the cops" kinda guy?

WHY!?

 

[Nexus]

I think you make a pretty good point. Personally, I don't think that Zimmerman would have followed Martin into a house or any other building or place where there might be other people who could give aid to Martin, who was being stalked by a dangerous armed stranger and could have served as witnesses if Quick Draw Zimmerman fired off a shot or two before they could intervene, although frankly, given Zimmerman's mind set, it is more likely he would have worried that there would be someone inside who would take exception to Zimmerman's actions. It is always a risk to run your prey to their home ground.

Excellent point.

Potential witnesses never stopped Zimmerman in all his other violent incidents.

 

[EPresence2]

I'm still not sure Zimmy was that stupid and aggressive. You are, and you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman assaulted an undercover cop before he killed Martin. Yes Zimmerman is that stupid and aggressive and all the other domestic violence and road rage incidents also demonstrate Zimmerman is stupid and aggressive.

OMG - he shoved an undercover police officer questioning a friend for underage drinking. The other incidents were allegations with dropped charges - saying nothing about what the truth actually is. Of course he attempted to detain a suspect in his neighborhood while armed and ready to shoot if things went sideways. What else would a vigilante do who's waiting for police to arrive? I should quote Nice Squirrel again for you.

 

[EPresence2]

Zimmerman assaulted an undercover cop before he killed Martin. Yes Zimmerman is that stupid and aggressive and all the other domestic violence and road rage incidents also demonstrate Zimmerman is stupid and aggressive.

...an undercover cop that he thought was a bouncer carding Zimmerman's underage friend. SO EVEN IF he KNOWS that the person is in a position of authority, most likely strong and hired to deal with aggressive drunks AND dealing with a person that Zimmerman KNOWS is IN THE WRONG, Zimmerman will still attack.

Still defending this guy as an "I'll wait quietly for the cops" kinda guy?

WHY!?

Good logic Rhea - but it still doesn't prove Zimmerman actually grabbed Trayvon. GZ did not state an intention to "detain a suspect" and his previous harassment of residents was limited to following them home. I see you can't admit that. But I know what makes you think he took the next step. It's just there are other factors that suggest he might not have. And it's hard to convict someone based on a "might have done." If the jury and prosecution had been better/different, the manslaughter charge might have stuck.

 

[Nexus]

OMG - he shoved an undercover police officer questioning a friend for underage drinking. The other incidents were allegations with dropped charges - saying nothing about what the truth actually is.

Shoving a cop while doing his duty is a big fucking deal. Even if Zimmerman didn't know he was a cop he did know it was an authority figure that was doing his rightful duty. Anyone that attacks a bouncer doing their job is stupid and aggressive. The other incidents where the charges were dropped says much more than nothing. It demonstrates a pattern of stupid aggressiveness. No one is that unlucky to innocently stumble into that many incidents. And considering what is known about women's reluctance to press charges in domestic violence cases its even more damaging to Zimmerman's credibility.

but it still doesn't prove Zimmerman actually grabbed Trayvon.

The kind of proof you require can only be found in mathematics. In real life its best to go with the odds and the odds are Zimmerman intended to detain one of "those assholes that always get away" when he the cop wananbe followed his suspect while armed after being told not to by police.

 

[Toni]

I think you make a pretty good point. Personally, I don't think that Zimmerman would have followed Martin into a house or any other building or place where there might be other people who could give aid to Martin, who was being stalked by a dangerous armed stranger and could have served as witnesses if Quick Draw Zimmerman fired off a shot or two before they could intervene, although frankly, given Zimmerman's mind set, it is more likely he would have worried that there would be someone inside who would take exception to Zimmerman's actions. It is always a risk to run your prey to their home ground.

Excellent point.

Potential witnesses never stopped Zimmerman in all his other violent incidents.

Yeah, but murder is somewhat higher stakes, even if the victim is a young black male who is on suspension from his high school...Plus there was a chance that anyone in the house might come to Martin's aid and maybe even had a gun. Zimmerman isn't known for liking fair fights.