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Are there really infinite transcendental numbers?

SLD

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Obviously n*e is transcendental where n is any other number. Therefore at a trivial level there are infinite numbers of transcendental numbers. But I mean an infinite number of numbers that not calculated using other transcendental numbers?

I would think the answer is yes. But all the proofs I see are of multiplying some number to e or pi.
 
Obviously n*e is transcendental where n is any other number. Therefore at a trivial level there are infinite numbers of transcendental numbers. But I mean an infinite number of numbers that not calculated using other transcendental numbers?

I would think the answer is yes. But all the proofs I see are of multiplying some number to e or pi.
So, you are aware that the question has been answered, and have identified some proofs that demonstrate the answer, but would like to find some additional proofs that reach the exact same answer a much harder way?

Good luck with that.

I don't know of many mathematicians who enjoy fighting with one hand tied behind their back.
 
Yes indeed, the Cantor diagonal argument. It is an existence proof: it proves that they exist without constructing them.

Mathematicians recognize three different kinds of infinity:
  • Cardinal numbers: how many members are in a set.
  • Ordinal numbers: numbers in sequence.
  • Limit of an arbitrarily large finite number.
It's the first kind that the OP is about.

Now for some set-theory features. A mapping from set A to set B is:
  • Injection: every element of A maps onto an element of B -- one-to-one
  • Surjection: every element of B has at least one element of A that maps onto it -- onto
  • Bijection: both
Two sets have the same cardinality or number of elements if and only if there exists a bijection between them: N(A) = N(B).

If there exists an injection from A to B, like A being a subset of B, then cardinalities N(A) <= N(B). If A is a proper subset of B, that is, some elements of B are not in A, then N(A) < N(B) is necessarily so only for finite sets, because for some infinite A and B, we can find a bijection between them.

For combining sets A and B, N(A union B) = N(A) + N(B) - N(A intersection B)

For the Cartesian project, A*B = { (a,b) for a in A and b in B } N(A*B) = N(A)*N(B)

This can also be repeated. A Cartesian power, A^n = {(a1,a2,..., an) for all in A} N(A^n) = N(A)^n

The (a1,a2,..., an) is a vector, and one can treat a vector as a function of its index: f(1) = a1, f(2) = a2, ..., f(n) = an.

We thus have a generalization of the Cartesian power: A^B = {all functions from B to A} |A^B| = |A|^|B|
 
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In the late 19th cy., Georg Cantor proposed that infinite cardinalities form an increasing sequence:

aleph-0, aleph-1, aleph-2, ...

Aleph-0 (A0) is the cardinality of the positive integers, but what are the others?

GC showed that the cardinality o f the real numbers, C, is greater than A0, and he conjectured the "continuum hypothesis", that C = A1. But he was unable to prove it, and later mathematicians showed that both the continuum hypothesis and its negation are consistent with a common axiomatic formulation of set theory.

Let's see what has what cardinality. Sets with it are called countably infinite or countable.

The nonnegative integers and the positive integers have this bijection: 0 - 1, 1 - 2, 2 - 3 -- thus, N(Z0+) = N(Z+) = A0

The integers and the positive integers have this bijection: 0 - 0, 1 - 1, -1 - 2, 2 - 3, -2 - 4, 3 - 5, -3, 6, ... -- thus, N(Z) = A0

The Cartesian square of the positive integers and the positive integers have this bijection: (1,1) - 1, (1,2) - 2, (2,1) - 3, (1,3) - 4, (2,2) - 5, (3,1) - 6, ... -- thus, N(Z^2) = A0

There is a surjection from Z^2 to the positive rational numbers: (a,b) - a/b. Thus, N(Q+) <= A0. The positive integers are a proper subset of the positive rational numbers. Thus N(Q+) >= A0. Combining the two gives N(Q+) = A0.

Likewise, one can how that N(Q0+) = A1 and N(Q) = A1.

So positive integers, nonnegative integers, integers, and rational numbers are all countable.
 
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For algebraic numbers A, one does something similar with the polynomials that they solve.

For each degree n of polynomial, one counts through all coefficients of them from -n to +n, with each polynomial having some number of solutions between 0 and n.

This means that one can make a bijection between the positive integers and every algebraic-number defining polynomial. This is obviously a surjection to the algebraic numbers, thus N(A) <= A0. But the positive integers are a proper subset of the algebraic numbers, thus A0 <= N(A), and from the two inequalities, N(A) = A0.

Since the real algebraic numbers are a proper subset of the complex ones, N(Ar) = A0.

In a similar fashion, one can define "computable numbers", those that can be approximated to arbitrary accuracy by running a Turing machine some finite number of steps. Calling this set T, it is a superset of Ar, but it has N(T) = A0.

All the transcendental numbers that we compute with are computable, since an algorithm for computing one of them is equivalent to a Turing machine.

So by what's a proper subset of what,

Z+ < Z0+ < Z < Q < Ar < T

All countable, all with cardinality A0. But is every infinite set countable?
 
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Let us consider the set of all subsets of a set, set A's power set P(A).

P(A) has a bijection with 2^A because each element maps onto a set-membership truth value, a member of {true, false}.

Do A and P(A) have the same cardinality? If they do, then their bijection must include elements that map onto sets that do not contain them. The set of such elements I will call X(A). Some element of A, a, must map onto X(A).

If a is in X(A), then a must not be in X(A). Likewise, if A is not in X(A), then a must be in X(A).

This contradiction means that no such bijection can exist, and therefore that N(P(A)) != N(A). Since there is an injection from A into P(A), in the form of a - {a} for each a in A, N(A) <= N(P(A)), and thus, N(A) < N(P(A))


Starting with the positive integers, one can find power sets, with their cardinalities forming the beth numbers:

beth-0 = aleph-0, beth-1, beth-2, ...

What is beth-1? Consider taking the binary version of a decimal form of real numbers from 0 to 1. Digit 1 is either 0 or 1, digit 2 is likewise, digit 3 is likewise, ...

Thus R[0,1] ~ P(Z+) and thus N(R[0,1]) = beth-1. One can push in 0 and 1 to give R(0,1) all real numbers between 0 and 1. One can then map these numbers onto all the real numbers with x -> 1/(1-x) - 1/x, thus giving

N(R) = C = beth-1

Going further, beth-2 is the cardinality of all functions from real numbers to real numbers. Continuous ones have cardinality C, however.

I've never seen beth-3 identified with anything, however.

Since C > A0, real numbers are uncountably infinite or uncountable.
 
Obviously n*e is transcendental where n is any other number. Therefore at a trivial level there are infinite numbers of transcendental numbers. But I mean an infinite number of numbers that not calculated using other transcendental numbers?

I would think the answer is yes. But all the proofs I see are of multiplying some number to e or pi.
This is addressed in terms of accessibility and "universes", from what I recall the last time this came up, and Swammerdami discussed that the mathematical theory around inaccessible cardinals was actually used in the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem.

Arguably, the value of the fine structure constant is just such a number, and notably the fine structure constant may not be so "constant" itself, having been perhaps slightly different at different times and places.

Generally, such numbers are only accessible through "measurement", and "the next digit" cannot necessarily even be calculated from the previous digit.

Thus we can use approximations of this number to find approximations of other related numbers, but the approximation cannot be improved mathematically, only through a better observation of the "measured number".

Any such "true" measured number would itself imply an infinitude of similarly inaccessible numbers, and thus a larger cardinality than the reals, numbers that cannot be counted to or even mathematically located or calculated with a transcendental number, except also with at least one such measured value.
 
Now the OP's question, how many transcendental numbers there are. Transcendental ones are non-algebraic real numbers, and since the infinity of real numbers is larger than the infinity of algebraic ones, there are as many transcendental ones as real ones.

There are also as many irrational numbers as real numbers, and also as many uncomputable numbers as real numbers.

I'd have to search online for how to do it, but for omitting finite numbers of members, there is an easy kind of proof that uses shifting.

For countable sets, that's very easy. For omitting one value: 1 - 2, 2 - 3, 3 - 4, ...

For real numbers, it is not quite as simple. Let us consider R and R - {1}. 1 - 1/2, 1/2 - 1/4, 1/4 - 1/8, ...

These sorts of proofs can be extended to any finite numbers of elements to omit.
 
Obviously n*e is transcendental where n is any other number. Therefore at a trivial level there are infinite numbers of transcendental numbers. But I mean an infinite number of numbers that not calculated using other transcendental numbers?

I would think the answer is yes. But all the proofs I see are of multiplying some number to e or pi.
So, you are aware that the question has been answered, and have identified some proofs that demonstrate the answer, but would like to find some additional proofs that reach the exact same answer a much harder way?

Good luck with that.

I don't know of many mathematicians who enjoy fighting with one hand tied behind their back.
No. Mathematicians are always doing that. Makes it more exciting.
 
Now the OP's question, how many transcendental numbers there are. Transcendental ones are non-algebraic real numbers, and since the infinity of real numbers is larger than the infinity of algebraic ones, there are as many transcendental ones as real ones.

There are also as many irrational numbers as real numbers, and also as many uncomputable numbers as real numbers.

I'd have to search online for how to do it, but for omitting finite numbers of members, there is an easy kind of proof that uses shifting.

For countable sets, that's very easy. For omitting one value: 1 - 2, 2 - 3, 3 - 4, ...

For real numbers, it is not quite as simple. Let us consider R and R - {1}. 1 - 1/2, 1/2 - 1/4, 1/4 - 1/8, ...

These sorts of proofs can be extended to any finite numbers of elements to omit.
It seems to me that the proof would be to show there are infinite numbers of ways to construct the transcendental numbers. e is constructed in a variety of ways as pi can be. Take the sum of 1/x! from 0 to infinity. But we can easily change around such equations. Louiville’s constant is another example. Sum of 10^-n! . But he proved that number was transcendental- actually the first one. e and pi were only proven later. So even if you get a new number, you'd have to demonstrate that it is transcendental. In the end you’d have to prove that the system you are using to generate transcendentals can only produce transcendentals.
 
Now the OP's question, how many transcendental numbers there are. Transcendental ones are non-algebraic real numbers, and since the infinity of real numbers is larger than the infinity of algebraic ones, there are as many transcendental ones as real ones.

There are also as many irrational numbers as real numbers, and also as many uncomputable numbers as real numbers.

I'd have to search online for how to do it, but for omitting finite numbers of members, there is an easy kind of proof that uses shifting.

For countable sets, that's very easy. For omitting one value: 1 - 2, 2 - 3, 3 - 4, ...

For real numbers, it is not quite as simple. Let us consider R and R - {1}. 1 - 1/2, 1/2 - 1/4, 1/4 - 1/8, ...

These sorts of proofs can be extended to any finite numbers of elements to omit.
It seems to me that the proof would be to show there are infinite numbers of ways to construct the transcendental numbers. e is constructed in a variety of ways as pi can be. Take the sum of 1/x! from 0 to infinity. But we can easily change around such equations. Louiville’s constant is another example. Sum of 10^-n! . But he proved that number was transcendental- actually the first one. e and pi were only proven later. So even if you get a new number, you'd have to demonstrate that it is transcendental. In the end you’d have to prove that the system you are using to generate transcendentals can only produce transcendentals.
This is why I bring up "measured" numbers, and "access of numbers through natural phenomena".


See also Grothendieck universes.
 
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Obviously n*e is transcendental where n is any other number. Therefore at a trivial level there are infinite numbers of transcendental numbers. But I mean an infinite number of numbers that not calculated using other transcendental numbers?

I would think the answer is yes. But all the proofs I see are of multiplying some number to e or pi.
This is addressed in terms of accessibility and "universes", from what I recall the last time this came up, and Swammerdami discussed that the mathematical theory around inaccessible cardinals was actually used in the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem.

I definitely do NOT remember making any such claim! Cite?

 Transcendental_number#Numbers_proven_to_be_transcendental provides a long list of numbers proven to be transcendental.

After π and e,  Euler's_constant γ = 0.57721566... is the "go-to" example of fundamental math constant likely to be transcendental. It has NOT been proven transcendental, but Wikipedia links to an AMAZING result about a certain infinite collection of numbers related to γ: Two mathematicians proved in 2010 that at most one element in that infinite collection is not transcendental.

 
Obviously n*e is transcendental where n is any other number. Therefore at a trivial level there are infinite numbers of transcendental numbers. But I mean an infinite number of numbers that not calculated using other transcendental numbers?

I would think the answer is yes. But all the proofs I see are of multiplying some number to e or pi.
This is addressed in terms of accessibility and "universes", from what I recall the last time this came up, and Swammerdami discussed that the mathematical theory around inaccessible cardinals was actually used in the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem.

I definitely do NOT remember making any such claim! Cite?

 Transcendental_number#Numbers_proven_to_be_transcendental provides a long list of numbers proven to be transcendental.

After π and e,  Euler's_constant γ = 0.57721566... is the "go-to" example of fundamental math constant likely to be transcendental. It has NOT been proven transcendental, but Wikipedia links to an AMAZING result about a certain infinite collection of numbers related to γ: Two mathematicians proved in 2010 that at most one element in that infinite collection is not transcendental.

Maybe it wasn't you? I made a discussion about numbers "not available math being questionable in their existence in reality, to which you linked me discussion on Grothendiek universes and the discussion of inaccessible cardinals. It was a brief exchange which I read more about, and which led me to the concept that such "measured" numbers each represent their own brand of extension.

Still, we only have one such number in evidence anywhere, namely the FSC. It makes sense insofar as it's the only numberless physical constant not determined by an arbitrary unit selection AFAIK.
 
elementary set theory - What is the largest set for which its set of self bijections is countable? - Mathematics Stack Exchange

Self-bijections = permutations. For permutations of A, we can all this set B(A) or A!.

For infinite sets, |A!| = |A|^|A| = 2^|A|

I'll turn the N() notation into || notation.

From set A to set B:
  • Injection: |A| <= |B|
  • Surjection: |A| >= |B|
  • Bijection: |A| = |B|
|A union B| = |A| + |B| - |A intersect B|
|Cartesian(A,B)| = |A|*|B|
|A^B: all f(B) to A| = |A|^|B|
|Power set of A = {true,false}^A| = 2^|A|

If at least one of a and b are infinite, then a+b = a*b = max(a,b)
Thus, for finite n and infinite a, n*a (adding n a's) = a^n (multiplying n a's) = a

A0*A0 = A0 - from zigzagging
C*C = C - from interleaving the digits of members of R[0,1] - 0.0000... to 0.9999...

For exponentiation, identities
(a*b)^c = (a^c)*(b^c)
(a^b)^c = a^(b*c)
a^(b+c) = (a^b)*(a^c)
also apply to infinite cardinalities.

For infinite cardinality a, if 2 <= b <= 2^a, then b^a = 2^a

Proof: (2 <= b <= 2^a)^a gives us 2^a <= b^a < (2^a)^a = 2^(a*a) = 2^a

Thus, (A0)^(A0) = 2^(A0) = C
and C^(A0) = C

Turning to permutations / self-bijections, since 2^(A0) <= (A0)! <= (A0)^(A0) we have C <= (A0)! <= C and thus (A0)! = C
 
I'll write an introduction to lpetrich's posts, using different words.

Definitions:
  • A function f : A → B is an injection ("one-to-one") if for each b ∈ B there is at most one a ∈ A with f(a) = b.
  • A function f : A → B is a surjection ("onto") if for each b ∈ B there is at least one a ∈ A with f(a) = b.
  • A function f : A → B is a bijection ("one-to-one and onto") if for each b ∈ B there is exactly one a ∈ A with f(a) = b.
  • Sets A and B are said to have the same cardinal number if there is a bijection from A to B.
  • (a,b) denotes {x | a < x < b}
  • [a,b) denotes {x | a ≤ x < b}
  • [a,b] denotes {x | a ≤ x ≤ b}
  • P(A) denotes the power set of A; P(A) = {x | x ⊆ A}
  • + denotes the set of counting numbers; ℕ+ = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...}
Theorem (the Cantor-Bernstein-Schroeder Theorem):
If there is an injection f : A → B and an injection g : B → A, then there exists a bijection h : A → B.​

(The name "Cantor-Bernstein-Schroeder Theorem" is misleading. Cantor's proof unnecessarily required the Axiom of Choice (which was unknown when Cantor published); Schroeder's proof was incorrect; and anyway Dedekind developed a correct proof before any of the three who appear in the theorem's name.)

Proof: Wikipedia shows a Proof by Julius König which appears to be constructive. For each x ∈ A, construct a sequence with alternating elements from A and B:
. . . f-1(g-1(x)), g-1(x), x, f(x), g(f(x)), f(g(f(x))), . . .​
As seen, we extend the sequence on the left with the inverse functions until we arrive at a non-existent inverse.
Each element of A or B will occur in exactly one of these sequences. The sequences will be one of four types
(a) a finite cycle​
(b) a sequence which starts with an element of A and extends infinitely to the right.​
(c) a sequence which starts with an element of B and extends infinitely to the right.​
(d) a sequence which is infinite in both directions.​
If x ∈ A occurs in a sequence of type (c), use h(x) = g-1(x) for the bijection.
If x ∈ A occurs in a sequence of type (a), (b) or (d), use h(x) = f(x) for the bijection.
Q.E.D.

(I write "appears to be constructive" because, as  Schröder–Bernstein theorem mentions, the Proof relies on Aristotle's Law of the Excluded Middle which is unacceptable to Intuitionists.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

With the above definitions we can set about the task of proving that two sets have the same cardinal number.

(1) (0, 1), (-π, π) and ℝ = (-∞, +∞), all three have the same cardinal number.
We can display bijections directly:​
(0, 1) ↔ (-π, π) is easy​
(-π, π) ↔ (-∞, +∞) is achieved via
f(x) = tan(x)​
f-1( y) = tan-1( y)​

(2) The integers ℤ and the rational numbers ℚ have the same cardinal number.
Here it is much easier to display two injections than a bijection. We need only show an injection f : ℤ → ℚ and another injection g : ℚ → ℤ​
f(x) = x suffices for the first injection. For p/q ∈ ℚ where p/q is non-negative and in lowest terms, g(p/q) = 2p⋅3q suffices for the second injection. When p/q is negative, use g(p/q) = 5⋅q(|p/q|)​

(3) The power-set P(ℕ+) of the counting numbers has the same cardinal number as [0, 1) = {x | x∈ℝ and 0 ≤ x < 1}
I presented a bijection for this some months ago in another thread, but try it yourself. It's fun!​

(4) The set of points on a line (ℝ) has the same cardinal number as the set of points on a plane (ℝ × ℝ)
 
 Cardinal number has a complete list of cardinal-arithmetic relations.

|A| = |B| iff there is a bijection between A and B
|A| <= |B| iff there is an injection from A to B
For infinite sets, there is some proper subset of it that has a bijection with the original set (Galileo's paradox).
Georg Cantor's great discovery is that some pairs of infinite sets do not have bijections between them.
iff = if and only if (equivalence)

0 = |{}| of course, with {} the empty set.

Addition: |A| + |B| = |A union B| where A intersect B = {} -- A and B are disjoint

From this definition, one finds these familiar properties of addition:
a+0 = 0+a = a
a+b = b+a
a+(b+c) = (a+b)+c
a <= b gives us (a+c) <= (b+c) for all c.

With the set-theory axiom of choice, one finds that if at least one of a and b are infinite, then a + b = max(a,b)

Also with the axiom of choice, subtraction is well-defined: for infinite b, there will be an x that satisfies a+x = b iff a <= b, and x will be unique and equal to be iff a < b.
 
Multiplication: |A|*|B| = |A*B| the Cartesian product: {(a,b) for all a in A, b in B}

From this definition, some more familiar properties:
a*0 = 0*a = 0
a*1 = 1*a = a
a*b = b*a
a*(b*c) = (a*b)*c
a*(b+c) = (a*b) + (a*b)

With the axiom of choice, for at least one of a and b infinite, a*b = max(a,b)

Also with that axiom, division is well-defined: for a nonzero and b infinite, there will be an x that satisfies a*x = b iff a <= b, and x will be unique and equal to b iff a < b.


Now to exponentiation: |A|^|B\ is |A^B| where A^B is the set of every function from B into A (the range of each function need not be all of A).

a^0 = 1 -- the empty function
0^0 = 1
if a > 0, then 0^a = 0
1^a = 1
a^1 = a
a^(b+c) = (a^b)*(a^c)
a^(b*c) = (a^b)^c
(a*b)^c = (a^c)*(b^c)
If 1 <= a and b <= c, then a^b <= a^c
If a <= b, then a^c <= b^c

With the axiom of choice, if a and b are finite and > 1 and c is infinite, then a^c = b^c
Also with that axiom, if a is infinite and b finite and nonzero, then a^b = a
With that axiom, if a > 1 and b >=1, then max(a,2^b) <= a^b <= max(2^a,2^b)

Roots: with that axiom, for a finite and > 0, and b infinite, then the solution of x^a = b is x = b

Logarithms: with that axiom, and with infinite cardinal b and finite cardinal a > 1, there may or or may not be some x such that a^x = b. But if such an x exists, x < b, and for all finite c > 1, c^x = b.
 
 Continuum hypothesis

There is no set X such that A0 < |X| < C = 2^(A0)

Georg Cantor tried to prove it, without any success. Kurt Gödel proved that CH cannot be disproved from the Zermelo-Fraenkel axioms of set theory (ZF) even if one adds the axiom of choice (ZF + C = ZFC). Paul Cohen showed that CH cannot be proved from ZFC. Thus, CH is independent of ZFC.

It can be generalized: for every set A, there is no set X that satisfies |A| < |X| < 2^|A|. The GCH is also independent of ZFC.

ZF:  Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory
ZFC: ZF +  Axiom of choice - from a set of sets, it's always possible to choose one element from each, even if the set of those chosen elements is infinite.
 
This is addressed in terms of accessibility and "universes", from what I recall the last time this came up, and Swammerdami discussed that the mathematical theory around inaccessible cardinals was actually used in the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem.
I definitely do NOT remember making any such claim!

My memory was jogged. Here's the post you recall:

By the way, Google will conjure up things like "Wiles's proof [of Fermat's Last Theorem] relies on Grothendieck's universes whose existence requires large cardinals, namely strongly inaccessible cardinals." I don't know if this claim has been submitted to PolitiFact, but I think they're just blowing smoke! Grothendieck, wanting maximum generality, assumed the existence of U in his theorems, so anyone relying on his theorems gets the assumption of inaccessible cardinals thrown in for free! 8-)

IOW, Wiles did NOT rely on any exotic axiom. But Grothendieck assumes his "universal sets" so anyone who links to Grothendieck's work implicitly gets universal sets whether their proof needs them or not.
 
This is addressed in terms of accessibility and "universes", from what I recall the last time this came up, and Swammerdami discussed that the mathematical theory around inaccessible cardinals was actually used in the proof of Fermat's Last Theorem.
I definitely do NOT remember making any such claim!

My memory was jogged. Here's the post you recall:

By the way, Google will conjure up things like "Wiles's proof [of Fermat's Last Theorem] relies on Grothendieck's universes whose existence requires large cardinals, namely strongly inaccessible cardinals." I don't know if this claim has been submitted to PolitiFact, but I think they're just blowing smoke! Grothendieck, wanting maximum generality, assumed the existence of U in his theorems, so anyone relying on his theorems gets the assumption of inaccessible cardinals thrown in for free! :cool:

IOW, Wiles did NOT rely on any exotic axiom. But Grothendieck assumes his "universal sets" so anyone who links to Grothendieck's work implicitly gets universal sets whether their proof needs them or not.
Well, more it's not really a "set of all sets" from my understanding but a "set where all the basic operations of math are supported". By the inclusion of a "measured number" or whatever, which I assume may indicate something like The FSC assuming that's an infinitely extending number, it's not technically U, though I don't know where you would go from "numbers you can't access from purely mathematical operations".

It depends on how many unitless physical constants exists whether all of U strictly "exists", and much of it "doesn't exist to be accessed here" especially assuming there's just the one such number we can access.

It's an interesting jaunt though, regardless.

My thoughts on the matter at this point are "a system can't have side channel access to itself without assuming an additional dimension through which that access is accomplished" and so "omnipotence in the Christian sense" is just not possible.

Of course much of this hinges on how you interpret "exists", too.

I could be misinterpreting the whole thing, or seeing it from a different angle than most mathematicians would consider valid?

The idea of A Grothendiek Universe implies that it's not "all sets", regardless, because A implies a set, and this itself doesn't indicate that there isn't another axiom that doesn't allow even further extension: it only works within the operations of set theory AFAIK, and again doesn't allow proving the axioms.

There could very well be classes of inaccessible numbers, or more axioms which extend set theory in ways we aren't well equipped for observing.

Again, I could totally be wrong about how I interpret all this!
 
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