George Zimmerman Arrested On Domestic Violence And Weapons Charge

[Arctish]

What would have happened if Martin just said, "Okay, let's wait for the cops"

Why is it Martin's responsibility to think and say that but not Zimmerman's?

Martin was walking home from the store on a public sidewalk, minding his own business and talking to a friend on the phone. Zimmerman made the choice to engage in armed pursuit of a stranger he thought looked suspicious. Why is it the responsibility of the pedestrian to be reasonable and not escalate things, but the aggressive asshole chasing him can go right on being an aggressive asshole?

I think your suggestion is absurd. The night I was being followed by a creepy ass stranger, I did not want to be anywhere near the guy much less stand there next to him for an undetermined amount of time while he decided what his next move was going to be. No way, no how. And yet, apparently you think it was my responsibility to do just that otherwise I was to blame for everything that followed and deserved to be shot.

I'd really like an answer to this question. Why is the guy who created the confrontation absolved of responsibility for it? Why is it the pedestrian's responsibility to suggest they wait for the cops? I just don't understand how you could blame the pedestrian for what happens when a man with a history of violence and aggression pursues, confronts, fights with, and kills him.

 

[RavenSky]

Your inability to understand my simple point makes me wonder about the quality of all your postings. I'm simply making the obvious suggestion that Z thought he was a cop.

I agree with you in part, but disagree in another part. I disagree with you that he thought he could get away with the shooting of a guy because of cop mentality. He had a go above and beyond a normal citizens thought process when reporting and following Martin. I don't think anyone is a quick enough thinker and has the thought process of, he let's provoke this guy into punching me and hitting me while he's on top so I can shoot him.

Who said he had that thought process?

I agree that Zimmerman viewed himself as some sort of cop. I think he figured he'd just do a citizen's arrest and hold the skinny teen until the real police arrived, but Trayvon justifiably defended himself. That's when Zimmerman panicked and killed Trayvon.

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I don't know about everyone else but I've learned from the zimmerman and wilson cases that it's in my best interests not to leave the other guy alive to tell his side of the story

Yep. That was Michael Dunn's mistake. He left several live witnesses and now Dunn is in prison.

 

[Underseer]

What would have happened if Martin just said, "Okay, let's wait for the cops"

Why is it Martin's responsibility to think and say that but not Zimmerman's?

Martin was walking home from the store on a public sidewalk, minding his own business and talking to a friend on the phone. Zimmerman made the choice to engage in armed pursuit of a stranger he thought looked suspicious. Why is it the responsibility of the pedestrian to be reasonable and not escalate things, but the aggressive asshole chasing him can go right on being an aggressive asshole?

Are you forgetting that the unarmed teenager in question is black, was wearing a hoodie, and had Skittles? If citizens are not allowed to chase down and kill unarmed black teenagers, then we will all be less free. Why do you hate our freedoms? [/conservolibertarian]

 

[scombrid]

Or we have. Someone who sees suspicious behavior and calls 311 to report and watches the person to see if it was normal behavior or not. The person takes off running suspiciously and he checks to see which way he goes.
Martin gets pissed for being watched and cold cocks the guy and finds out not good to start a fight with a guy with a gun.

Zimmerman has certainly demonstrated both excellent judgement and impulse control over the years and in recent events. Therefore, I'm sure that he was correct in his assumption that Martin was up to no good. I also bet he's being totally honest when he claims that he was just quietly walking back to his truck when Martin blind-sided him in a vicious unprovoked attack.

 

[Rhea]

About 20 pages ago, I mentioned that one thing we didn't really accept at the time of the Z trial is that cops relatively often kill innocent black people.

Being the cop slut that Z clearly was and is, he had to understood this better than us white northern middle class liberals.

As English Bob says in Unforgiven -

[discussing the assassination of President Garfield] If you were to try to assassinate a king, sir, the, how shall I say it, the aura of royalty would cause you to miss. But, a president, [chuckles] I mean, why not shoot a president?

It seems Z killed T because he could.

By coincidence, this was published today...

Sgt. Valerie Deant arrived at a Florida gun range for weapons training with the National Guard. Miami Beach Police had just been on the range and she was shocked to see the targets they were using for practice—mugshots of African-American men:

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Holy fucking crap.

 

[Toni]

About 20 pages ago, I mentioned that one thing we didn't really accept at the time of the Z trial is that cops relatively often kill innocent black people.

Being the cop slut that Z clearly was and is, he had to understood this better than us white northern middle class liberals.

As English Bob says in Unforgiven -



It seems Z killed T because he could.

By coincidence, this was published today...

Sgt. Valerie Deant arrived at a Florida gun range for weapons training with the National Guard. Miami Beach Police had just been on the range and she was shocked to see the targets they were using for practice—mugshots of African-American men:

And before anybody says well, dailykos:

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...nal-Photos-as-Shooting-Targets-288739131.html

 

[bleubird]

No,Rhea I was joking.No foul no harm.

 

[Frikki]

My theory is a little more nuanced I hope.

My main point is that the killer police situation was not widely accepted until late last year.

This goes a long way to understand Z's behavior. In any case, this really weakens the evil T scenarios.

I don't think so. He was lucky and the trial could have gone either way. It was a huge gamble for him to take if he made an active decision going into the situation that he thought he could shoot Martin. What would have happened if Martin just said, "Okay, let's wait for the cops"

Why should Martin have said that. If I walked up to you and said that there had been a bunch of flashings going on and you looked like the type to expose yourself to children would your response be "ok let's wait for the police"?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Exactly, Martin was free to go about his business.

 

[semiopen]

A cop has a higher threshold than an ordinary person to be prosecuted for homicide. That doesn't mean that the cop is constantly thinking if it's ok for him to kill someone.

Zimmerman thought he was a cop. When he decided kill T, he consciously or unconsciously decided this was justified.

It seems to me that cannot be argued against.

Not only did Z think he was a cop, he thought he was a bad ass cop. This in a world where even good cops are suspect.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I don't think so. He was lucky and the trial could have gone either way. It was a huge gamble for him to take if he made an active decision going into the situation that he thought he could shoot Martin. What would have happened if Martin just said, "Okay, let's wait for the cops"

Why should Martin have said that. If I walked up to you and said that there had been a bunch of flashings going on and you looked like the type to expose yourself to children would your response be "ok let's wait for the police"?

And if you asked that question to me, is it my right to punch you in the face for asking that question? The question, "what are you doing here" in a gated neighborhood community is a valid question and should have been answered with, "Just walking home from 7/11 to my dad's/uncles that is a couple houses down, want to make sure?" And things would have been avoided.

 

[Arctish]

Why should Martin have said that. If I walked up to you and said that there had been a bunch of flashings going on and you looked like the type to expose yourself to children would your response be "ok let's wait for the police"?

And if you asked that question to me, is it my right to punch you in the face for asking that question? The question, "what are you doing here" in a gated neighborhood community is a valid question and should have been answered with, "Just walking home from 7/11 to my dad's/uncles that is a couple houses down, want to make sure?" And things would have been avoided.

This is just another "Martin threw the first punch" story. You don't know that he did, and no matter how strongly you believe it to be true, it isn't even close to being as likely as Zimmerman being the one who turned the verbal confrontation - a confrontation he went to some effort to achieve - into a physical one. Why is the guy who created the confrontation absolved of responsibility for it? Why is the guy with the history of violence being excused for the violent confrontation he engineered, and the guy minding his own business being blamed for it?

You are completely discounting Martin's right to walk on a public sidewalk unmolested, his legitimate fear for his life and safety, and his right to stand his ground. You're not the only one who skips right past that part, though. It's very common in the Zimmerman camp. And yet, they cannot explain why the rights every American citizen enjoys don't apply to Trayvon Martin. It's as thought Zimmerman supporters believe only white people are allowed to go about their business and defend themselves from the violent thugs who pursue them.

 

[coloradoatheist]

And if you asked that question to me, is it my right to punch you in the face for asking that question? The question, "what are you doing here" in a gated neighborhood community is a valid question and should have been answered with, "Just walking home from 7/11 to my dad's/uncles that is a couple houses down, want to make sure?" And things would have been avoided.

This is just another "Martin threw the first punch" story. You don't know that he did, and no matter how strongly you believe it to be true, it isn't even close to being as likely as Zimmerman being the one who turned the verbal confrontation - a confrontation he went to some effort to achieve - into a physical one.

Also, you are completely discounting Martin's legitimate fear for his life and safety, and his right to stand his ground. You're not the only one who skips right past that part, though. It's very common in the Zimmerman camp. It's as thought Zimmerman supporters believe only white people are allowed to go about their business unmolested and defend themselves from the violent thugs who pursue them.

And the other camp thinks that Martin was a perfect little angel, no problems in the past and would soon be at Harvard if he hadn't been killed. I don't understand why you can't think Martin turned the confrontation physical and violent.

 

[RavenSky]

And the other camp thinks that Martin was a perfect little angel, no problems in the past and would soon be at Harvard if he hadn't been killed..

That would be that strawman camp on some other board

On this board, we are saying that every indication, including what we know about Zimmerman and his behavior towards other people before and after he killed Trayvon, shows that Zimmerman started the physical altercation. But even if we want to entertain the extremely remote possibility that Trayvon did - you are still ignoring that it was Trayvon who had the right to stand his ground and to defend himself from perceived danger.

 

[coloradoatheist]

And the other camp thinks that Martin was a perfect little angel, no problems in the past and would soon be at Harvard if he hadn't been killed..

That would be that strawman camp on some other board

On this board, we are saying that every indication, including what we know about Zimmerman and his behavior towards other people before and after he killed Trayvon, shows that Zimmerman started the physical altercation. But even if we want to entertain the extremely remote possibility that Trayvon did - you are still ignoring that it was Trayvon who had the right to stand his ground and to defend himself from perceived danger.

It's definitely hard to say only one side had a tendency to be violent when the other side had a history of getting into fights and even his brother thinking he got suspended for assaulting a bus driver.

Being approached in a neighborhood didn't justify perceiving it as a threat and I don't think Martin saw it as a threat either but wanted to prove a point.

 

[Frikki]

That would be that strawman camp on some other board

On this board, we are saying that every indication, including what we know about Zimmerman and his behavior towards other people before and after he killed Trayvon, shows that Zimmerman started the physical altercation. But even if we want to entertain the extremely remote possibility that Trayvon did - you are still ignoring that it was Trayvon who had the right to stand his ground and to defend himself from perceived danger.

It's definitely hard to say only one side had a tendency to be violent when the other side had a history of getting into fights and even his brother thinking he got suspended for assaulting a bus driver.

Being approached in a neighborhood didn't justify perceiving it as a threat and I don't think Martin saw it as a threat either but wanted to prove a point.

There is no helping you, this forum has turned into Stormfront Lite.

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Why should Martin have said that. If I walked up to you and said that there had been a bunch of flashings going on and you looked like the type to expose yourself to children would your response be "ok let's wait for the police"?

And if you asked that question to me, is it my right to punch you in the face for asking that question? The question, "what are you doing here" in a gated neighborhood community is a valid question and should have been answered with, "Just walking home from 7/11 to my dad's/uncles that is a couple houses down, want to make sure?" And things would have been avoided.

Keep evading the point.

 

[RavenSky]

That would be that strawman camp on some other board

On this board, we are saying that every indication, including what we know about Zimmerman and his behavior towards other people before and after he killed Trayvon, shows that Zimmerman started the physical altercation. But even if we want to entertain the extremely remote possibility that Trayvon did - you are still ignoring that it was Trayvon who had the right to stand his ground and to defend himself from perceived danger.

It's definitely hard to say only one side had a tendency to be violent when the other side had a history of getting into fights and even his brother thinking he got suspended for assaulting a bus driver.

false. Trayvon did not have "a history" of getting into fights, nor did his brother say Trayvon was suspended for assaulting a bus driver. There was nothing more than some big talk on text - no arrests, no suspensions for fighting, nothing.

Zimmerman, otoh...

It is disgusting how the slanders against the deed teenager just grow and grow... like Pinocchio's nose.

Being approached in a neighborhood didn't justify perceiving it as a threat and I don't think Martin saw it as a threat either but wanted to prove a point.

Oh bullshit! That aggressive asshole Zimmerman first followed Trayvon via SUV, then took his gun to follow Trayvon on foot. Unless his quarry is a football linebacker or simply insane, Zimmerman is going to be perceived as a threat by his own actions. And given what we know about Zimmerman from both before and after he killed Trayvon, he obviously was a threat.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It's definitely hard to say only one side had a tendency to be violent when the other side had a history of getting into fights and even his brother thinking he got suspended for assaulting a bus driver.

false. Trayvon did not have "a history" of getting into fights, nor did his brother say Trayvon was suspended for assaulting a bus driver. There was nothing more than some big talk on text - no arrests, no suspensions for fighting, nothing.

Zimmerman, otoh...

It is disgusting how the slanders against the deed teenager just grow and grow... like Pinocchio's nose.

Being approached in a neighborhood didn't justify perceiving it as a threat and I don't think Martin saw it as a threat either but wanted to prove a point.

Oh bullshit! That aggressive asshole Zimmerman first followed Trayvon via SUV, then took his gun to follow Trayvon on foot. Unless his quarry is a football linebacker or simply insane, Zimmerman is going to be perceived as a threat by his own actions. And given what we know about Zimmerman from both before and after he killed Trayvon, he obviously was a threat.

When the defense tried to bring up text/tweets/facebook messages about Martin's history they were barred by the courts, along with school records. And I said that his brother asked if he was suspended for fighting, not that he was. And you don't have to be arrested for street fighting to actually have been in a street fight. There was the you tube video of him refeering street fights and and texts of him talking about a fight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And if you asked that question to me, is it my right to punch you in the face for asking that question? The question, "what are you doing here" in a gated neighborhood community is a valid question and should have been answered with, "Just walking home from 7/11 to my dad's/uncles that is a couple houses down, want to make sure?" And things would have been avoided.

This is just another "Martin threw the first punch" story. You don't know that he did, and no matter how strongly you believe it to be true, it isn't even close to being as likely as Zimmerman being the one who turned the verbal confrontation - a confrontation he went to some effort to achieve - into a physical one. Why is the guy who created the confrontation absolved of responsibility for it? Why is the guy with the history of violence being excused for the violent confrontation he engineered, and the guy minding his own business being blamed for it?

You are completely discounting Martin's right to walk on a public sidewalk unmolested, his legitimate fear for his life and safety, and his right to stand his ground. You're not the only one who skips right past that part, though. It's very common in the Zimmerman camp. And yet, they cannot explain why the rights every American citizen enjoys don't apply to Trayvon Martin. It's as thought Zimmerman supporters believe only white people are allowed to go about their business and defend themselves from the violent thugs who pursue them.

But to convict Zimmerman you can't merely be uncertain about who threw the first punch, but you must be able to show that it was Zimmerman who did so.