George Zimmerman Arrested On Domestic Violence And Weapons Charge

[EPresence2]

Thank you.

and so is the buff descriptor!

The look from a distance and or in teh dark? I disagree. Look again at his photos entering the police station (so you can see his walk and chest) and his video of "the walkthrough" which he does in a polo shirt. That is the look of someone who is fit.

Rhea, there is difference between "buff" and "fit." Why would someone so bad at fighting start a fight? Oh yeah, this guy was really that stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Rachel said that he asked Martin "What are you doing here?" If that's not what he said, what does that tell you about her testimony? Of course it doesn't mean she lied about everything, and neither does the Z's previous history necessary mean he stepped over the line again.

Did Zimmerman identify himself?

Doesn't sound like it, but it could be assumed he lived in the gated community. That still speaks poorly of GZ's actions.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Thank you.



The look from a distance and or in teh dark? I disagree. Look again at his photos entering the police station (so you can see his walk and chest) and his video of "the walkthrough" which he does in a polo shirt. That is the look of someone who is fit.

Rhea, there is difference between "buff" and "fit." Why would someone so bad at fighting start a fight? Oh yeah, this guy was really that stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Rachel said that he asked Martin "What are you doing here?" If that's not what he said, what does that tell you about her testimony? Of course it doesn't mean she lied about everything, and neither does the Z's previous history necessary mean he stepped over the line again.

Did Zimmerman identify himself?

Doesn't sound like it, but it could be assumed he lived in the gated community. That still speaks poorly of GZ's actions.

What would living in the (un) gated community have to do with anything since anyone could just drive in or walk to the store for Skittles?

 

[EPresence2]

Rhea, there is difference between "buff" and "fit." Why would someone so bad at fighting start a fight? Oh yeah, this guy was really that stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Rachel said that he asked Martin "What are you doing here?" If that's not what he said, what does that tell you about her testimony? Of course it doesn't mean she lied about everything, and neither does the Z's previous history necessary mean he stepped over the line again.

Let's at least get our facts straight - it was a gated community at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Retreat_at_Twin_Lakes), but it had no perimeter fence. You could walk into the neighborhood, but could you drive into it without a code or something? I'm honestly not sure - it could have been a gate that automatically opens during the day and locks at night.

Did Zimmerman identify himself?

Doesn't sound like it, but it could be assumed he lived in the gated community. That still speaks poorly of GZ's actions.

What would living in the (un) gated community have to do with anything since anyone could just drive in or walk to the store for Skittles?

It was a gated community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Retreat_at_Twin_Lakes) without a perimeter fence. So you could walk into the neighborhood. Driving into the neighborhood should have been more difficult.

 

[Arctish]

Not according to his MMA instructor. He was rated a 1 (at best) on a scale of 0-10 by trainer Adam Pollock.

Pollock was speaking about Zimmerman's MMA fighting skills, not his muscle tone. Pollock testified that Zimmerman lost weight and got in shape during the time he spent at the gym.

Just wondering how you would rate Martin's athletic prowess. Does he get an automatic 8 because he's, well, you know..... "naturally gifted"? Or does he also get a 1 because he didn't train 3 times a week at a MMA gym for 2 years, like Zimmerman did?

Also, I can't help but notice that the "what if...?" scenario you present here has all the aggression being assigned to Martin and none to the guy with a documented history of aggression

Maybe that's because I've allowed for two possible scenarios - one in which GZ steps over the physical/non-physical line to attempt detaining Martin.

But in order to place those 2 scenarios on equal footing, one must exaggerate Martin's known history into something close to caricature, and dismiss Zimmerman's known history in a manner close to dishonesty. The chances Martin attacked are nowhere near equal to the chances Zimmerman attacked, as their personal histories and the known circumstances that night clearly show.

Quick review of facts in evidence and statements made to the police by eye witnesses:

Martin: 1 fight at school when he was a teenager (not known if he was aggressor or victim).

Zimmerman: 1 fight when he was a teenager (not known if he was aggressor or victim) + 1 restraining order for domestic violence + 1 assault of a police officer + 1 witness statement from former co-worker Zimmerman threw a woman down onto a sidewalk + 1 witness statement from Zimmerman's cousin that he bullied and sexually assaulted her for 10 years.

How does this translate into Martin being the aggressive asshole? How is it possible to believe that Zimmerman wasn't being an aggressive asshole when he got out of his car to engage in armed pursuit of a teenager who had done nothing at all to warrant it? Why is Martin still being portrayed as the one who throws punches while Zimmerman, with his record of violent confrontational behavior prior to and since the trial, is still being portrayed as a passive milquetoast?

... in one of the scenarios he is portrayed somewhat less aggressively. He is overly aggressive in both - where is the unstoppable slippery slope to attempting an unlawful detainment?

I could have left the part out about circling the car and retained the basic scenario. I have no doubt Z covered his ass to some degree. It's very possible he shot prematurely knowing only that he was loosing the fight. I still don't see a connection to an overwhelming likelihood that Z actually attempted to detain Martin. That seems based entirely on conjecture, assuming a homogeneous pattern of behavior, and making a leap to an absurd conclusion. Maybe you and others here see it as more of a baby step. You can believe that, but I and many others don't see it necessarily that way.

Zimmerman attempting to detain the person he called one of the "assholes" who "always get away", the person he decided to pursue in the dark and the rain, is more likely than Martin attacking the creepy ass cracker* he was trying to avoid. Also, you are still overlooking Martin having a reasonable fear for his life and safety, and his right to stand his ground.

Now you are putting thoughts into Martin's head - maybe he wasn't afraid of this guy [rated 1 on a scale of 1-10 in physical prowess] confronting him in a gated community. Maybe Martin got tired of the misguided/audacious tailing or maybe Zimmerman decided to "not let this asshole get away" in a more literal interpretation of the phrase.

As I said before, maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot.

When you preface your sentences with "maybe", you can say anything. But not all things said are equally likely, or equally supported by evidence, or equally reasonable.

I know it won't happen, but I hope when the next racial tragedy strikes that people will reserve their judgement until epic discussions/trials are concluded. Humans are all too quick to form strong opinions into which they try to fit all the evidence.

You know it won't happen that people will carefully consider the facts before reaching conclusions? You are sorely misjudging people on this board

*per Jeantel's recollection of the conversation; Zimmerman's words were recorded, Martin's weren't.

I was not nececessary referring to posters on this discussion forum - it was more of a general statement. People on this board are not a monolithic entity; there appears to be disgreement even now on some aspects of the case. I'm still not sure if Zimmerman went so far as to grab Martin - that's beyond stupid. It reminds me (a little) of the portrayal of officer Wilson as the completely stupid asshole and Brown as the completely innocent victim. The reality may very well be more nuanced.

It may be. But as they say, when you hear hoof beats, there's no reason to think it's zebras when horses are known to roam the area.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Rhea, there is difference between "buff" and "fit." Why would someone so bad at fighting start a fight? Oh yeah, this guy was really that stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Rachel said that he asked Martin "What are you doing here?" If that's not what he said, what does that tell you about her testimony? Of course it doesn't mean she lied about everything, and neither does the Z's previous history necessary mean he stepped over the line again.

Let's at least get our facts straight - it was a gated community at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Retreat_at_Twin_Lakes), but it had no perimeter fence. You could walk into the neighborhood, but could you drive into it without a code or something? I'm honestly not sure - it could have been a gate that automatically opens during the day and locks at night.

Did Zimmerman identify himself?

Doesn't sound like it, but it could be assumed he lived in the gated community. That still speaks poorly of GZ's actions.

What would living in the (un) gated community have to do with anything since anyone could just drive in or walk to the store for Skittles?

It was a gated community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Retreat_at_Twin_Lakes) without a perimeter fence. So you could walk into the neighborhood. Driving into the neighborhood should have been more difficult.

And what would that have changed? I'm really not sure what you are implying. That Martin would know who this man was and why he was stalking him? (Remember Martin is a teenager.)

 

[EPresence2]

But in order to place those 2 scenarios on equal footing, one must exaggerate Martin's known history into something close to caricature, and dismiss Zimmerman's known history in a manner close to dishonesty. The chances Martin attacked are nowhere near equal to the chances Zimmerman attacked, as their personal histories clearly show.

I'm not dismissing his known history and I'm also not connecting the dots to something that sounds more outrageous. How have I exaggerated Martin's known history? By assuming it is possible he got angry enough to punch Zimmerman for confronting him? A lack of evidence for such a reaction is not evidence of absence - I'm sure you've heard that before in a different context.

 

[EPresence2]

Rhea, there is difference between "buff" and "fit." Why would someone so bad at fighting start a fight? Oh yeah, this guy was really that stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Rachel said that he asked Martin "What are you doing here?" If that's not what he said, what does that tell you about her testimony? Of course it doesn't mean she lied about everything, and neither does the Z's previous history necessary mean he stepped over the line again.

Let's at least get our facts straight - it was a gated community at the time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Retreat_at_Twin_Lakes), but it had no perimeter fence. You could walk into the neighborhood, but could you drive into it without a code or something? I'm honestly not sure - it could have been a gate that automatically opens during the day and locks at night.

Did Zimmerman identify himself?

Doesn't sound like it, but it could be assumed he lived in the gated community. That still speaks poorly of GZ's actions.

What would living in the (un) gated community have to do with anything since anyone could just drive in or walk to the store for Skittles?

It was a gated community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Retreat_at_Twin_Lakes) without a perimeter fence. So you could walk into the neighborhood. Driving into the neighborhood should have been more difficult.

And what would that have changed? I'm really not sure what you are implying. That Martin would know who this man was and why he was stalking him? (Remember Martin is a teenager.)

Easy - if the gate was locked at/near night, then a vehicle being present inside the neighborhood probably means the driver lives in that neighborhood (or has the entry code). Are you assuming Martin could not have connected those dots?

 

[Rhea]

Rhea, there is difference between "buff" and "fit."

For Trayvon Martin, or any other teen being followed by someone who is "buff" or "fit" the reaction is not substantially different. If I were followed at night, my reaction would not change one iota if I categorized the skinhead following me as "buff" versus "fit."

There is a much smaller difference (much!) between Zimmerman that night and "buff" than there is between Zimmerman that night and "zero muscle tone." I stand by my words.

Why would someone so bad at fighting start a fight? Oh yeah, this guy was really that stupid.

It looks as though he is doing his level best to prove that, doesn't it?

 

[none]

But in order to place those 2 scenarios on equal footing, one must exaggerate Martin's known history into something close to caricature, and dismiss Zimmerman's known history in a manner close to dishonesty. The chances Martin attacked are nowhere near equal to the chances Zimmerman attacked, as their personal histories clearly show.

I'm not dismissing his known history and I'm also not connecting the dots to something that sounds more outrageous. How have I exaggerated Martin's known history? By assuming it is possible he got a angry scared enough to punch Zimmerman for confronting him? A lack of evidence for such a reaction is not evidence of absence - I'm sure you've heard that before in a different context.

Fixed it for you, carry on

 

[Rhea]

[I'm not dismissing his known history and I'm also not connecting the dots to something that sounds more outrageous. How have I exaggerated Martin's known history? By assuming it is possible he got angry enough to punch Zimmerman for confronting him?

~snort! GTFOOH.

Yes, by assuming it must be "anger" and not anxiety/fear, or anger mixed with anxiety/fear.
Note when he spoke to Janteal he didn't say, "dickhead" cracker he said "creepy" cracker.
Note his initial reaction is to try to get away.
Note that he stays away.
Note that the confrontation happens far far from Z's car in a back sidewalk.
Note that if Martin were trying to hide from the creepy cracker, this is where he would hide if he were trying to avoid the creepy cracker.
Note that if Martin were giving him the benefit of the doubt about being a creepy cracker and just getting out of the way of thye dickhead cracker, this is where he would hide/stand.
Note that Zimmerman followed him there.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

And what would that have changed? I'm really not sure what you are implying. That Martin would know who this man was and why he was stalking him? (Remember Martin is a teenager.)

Easy - if the gate was locked at/near night, then a vehicle being present inside the neighborhood probably means the driver lives in that neighborhood (or has the entry code). Are you assuming Martin could not have assumed that?

No, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant. Zimmerman was some guy who took more than a passing interest in a teenager who was essentially minding his own business. Zimmerman obviously watched or stared at Martin long enough for Martin to know. Martin quite possibly changed course to avoid the staring person, something I do quite often, as staring people usually mean some sort of hassle. Zimmerman failed to identify himself when Martin asked him who he was. Being in a gated community does not change this. Martin wouldn't know if Zimmerman was a member of the community or a serial killer who had just left the family he butchered. So why the assumption that a gated community makes a difference?

 

[coloradoatheist]

Easy - if the gate was locked at/near night, then a vehicle being present inside the neighborhood probably means the driver lives in that neighborhood (or has the entry code). Are you assuming Martin could not have assumed that?

No, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant. Zimmerman was some guy who took more than a passing interest in a teenager who was essentially minding his own business. Zimmerman obviously watched or stared at Martin long enough for Martin to know. Martin quite possibly changed course to avoid the staring person, something I do quite often, as staring people usually mean some sort of hassle. Zimmerman failed to identify himself when Martin asked him who he was. Being in a gated community does not change this. Martin wouldn't know if Zimmerman was a member of the community or a serial killer who had just left the family he butchered. So why the assumption that a gated community makes a difference?

The question would be what sort of hassle he thought Zimmerman was. In a closed neighborhood somebody watching I would assume to be a neighborhood watch and just seeing something suspicious. In my neighborhood I would just wave and keep on walking.

 

[ksen]

So why the assumption that a gated community makes a difference?

Because that's what open minded people do.

 

[EPresence2]

Easy - if the gate was locked at/near night, then a vehicle being present inside the neighborhood probably means the driver lives in that neighborhood (or has the entry code). Are you assuming Martin could not have assumed that?

No, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant. Zimmerman was some guy who took more than a passing interest in a teenager who was essentially minding his own business. Zimmerman obviously watched or stared at Martin long enough for Martin to know. Martin quite possibly changed course to avoid the staring person, something I do quite often, as staring people usually mean some sort of hassle. Zimmerman failed to identify himself when Martin asked him who he was. Being in a gated community does not change this. Martin wouldn't know if Zimmerman was a member of the community or a serial killer who had just left the family he butchered. So why the assumption that a gated community makes a difference?

The fact of a gated community doesn't negate the other factors. That was neither implied nor stated. It is one of many factors that could go into what Trayvon was thinking. And I have yet to find any evidence of Zimmerman doing anything more than following "suspicious" people to their house - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html. It does seem like a leap to assume he must have grabbed Martin, yet I submit that it remains a possibility.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

No, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant. Zimmerman was some guy who took more than a passing interest in a teenager who was essentially minding his own business. Zimmerman obviously watched or stared at Martin long enough for Martin to know. Martin quite possibly changed course to avoid the staring person, something I do quite often, as staring people usually mean some sort of hassle. Zimmerman failed to identify himself when Martin asked him who he was. Being in a gated community does not change this. Martin wouldn't know if Zimmerman was a member of the community or a serial killer who had just left the family he butchered. So why the assumption that a gated community makes a difference?

The question would be what sort of hassle he thought Zimmerman was. In a closed neighborhood somebody watching I would assume to be a neighborhood watch and just seeing something suspicious. In my neighborhood I would just wave and keep on walking.

You are not a black-hoodie wearing teen.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The question would be what sort of hassle he thought Zimmerman was. In a closed neighborhood somebody watching I would assume to be a neighborhood watch and just seeing something suspicious. In my neighborhood I would just wave and keep on walking.

You are not a black-hoodie wearing teen.

Yep...I'm not worried about the police or the neighborhood watch following me.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

No, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant. Zimmerman was some guy who took more than a passing interest in a teenager who was essentially minding his own business. Zimmerman obviously watched or stared at Martin long enough for Martin to know. Martin quite possibly changed course to avoid the staring person, something I do quite often, as staring people usually mean some sort of hassle. Zimmerman failed to identify himself when Martin asked him who he was. Being in a gated community does not change this. Martin wouldn't know if Zimmerman was a member of the community or a serial killer who had just left the family he butchered. So why the assumption that a gated community makes a difference?

The fact of a gated community doesn't negate the other factors. That was neither implied nor stated. It is one of many factors that could go into what Trayvon was thinking.

Th most important factor was that he was being actively followed by a stranger. (Change your route and the stranger changes his to match it does raise a fear level in most mammals.)

And I have yet to find any evidence of Zimmerman doing anything more than following "suspicious" people to their house - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html. It does seem like a leap to assume he must have grabbed Martin, yet I submit that it remains a possibility.

I'm not sure why you think it takes a greater leap to go from an active pursuer failing to identify himself (and from his 911 call identifying Martin as one who might get away) to making physical contact with Martin. It seems to be pretty logical based upon what we know.

- - - Updated - - -

You are not a black-hoodie wearing teen.

Yep...I'm not worried about the police or the neighborhood watch following me.

Consider yourself privileged.

 

[laughing dog]

You are not a black-hoodie wearing teen.

Yep...I'm not worried about the police or the neighborhood watch following me.

Maybe you ought to be in case there is Zimmerman wannabe around.

 

[EPresence2]

I'm not sure why you think it takes a greater leap to go from an active pursuer failing to identify himself (and from his 911 call identifying Martin as one who might get away) to making physical contact with Martin. It seems to be pretty logical based upon what we know.

I'm not sure why you think it doesn't take a greater leap to go from an active pursuer failing to identify himself (and from his 911 call identifying Martin as one who might get away) to making physical contact with Martin. It seems to be pretty logical based upon what "we" know. In other words, there was a reasonable doubt at the time IMO. At least I'm not claiming to know anything about what really happened. It's a position that can easily be changed with comprehensive evidence and logic/internal consistency. Now I really need to get off this thread and leave it at that. If I spout off again, please smack me around with emoticons.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Yep...I'm not worried about the police or the neighborhood watch following me.

Maybe you ought to be in case there is Zimmerman wannabe around.

Nope, not worried about. Much more worried about burglars and them breaking in and stealing my stuff.