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What's wrong with Western Economies and economics - Edmund Phelps, Nobel Laureate in Economics

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In the current New York Review of Books, Nobel Laureate Edmund Phelps has an interesting essay titled "What Is Wrong with the West’s Economies?" (source: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/what-wrong-wests-economies/).

In it, he argues that Western economies have generally failed at "inclusion" (defined as "access to jobs offering work and pay that provide self-respect"). He goes on to write
This failing in the West’s economies is also a failing of economics. The classical idea of political economy has been to let wage rates sink to whatever level the market takes them, and then provide everyone with the “safety net” of a “negative income tax,” unemployment insurance, and free food, shelter, clothing, and medical care. This policy, even when humanely carried out, and it often is not, misses the point that, even if we confine our attention to the West since the Renaissance, many people have long felt the desire to do something with their lives besides consuming goods and having leisure. They desire to participate in a community in which they can interact and develop.

He goes onto the notion of "flourishing"( defined as "using one’s imagination, exercising one’s creativity, taking fascinating journeys into the unknown, and acting on the world"),and how current Western economies act to deter such human activity.

The essay ends with
Taking concrete actions will not help much without fresh thinking: people must first grasp that standard economics is not a guide to flourishing—it is a tool only for efficiency. Widespread flourishing in a nation requires an economy energized by its own homegrown innovation from the grassroots on up...... Of the concrete steps that would help to widen flourishing, a reform of education stands out. The problem here is not a perceived mismatch between skills taught and skills in demand. (Experts have urged greater education in STEM subjects—science, technology, engineering, and mathematics—but when Europe created specialized universities in these subjects, no innovation was observed.) The problem is that young people are not taught to see the economy as a place where participants may imagine new things, where entrepreneurs may want to build them and investors may venture to back some of them. It is essential to educate young people to this image of the economy.....
We will all have to turn from the classical fixation on wealth accumulation and efficiency to a modern economics that places imagination and creativity at the center of economic life.

Phelps is not some "leftist" ideologue, but a well-known and very accomplished mainstream economist. His ideas in the essay are thought provoking and well-worth the read. His demarcation that economics is about efficiency is something all competent and honest economists understand and try to practice.
 
I read some of this yesterday.

I almost posted it here too! :fistbump:
 
The problem is that young people are not taught to see the economy as a place where participants may imagine new things, where entrepreneurs may want to build them and investors may venture to back some of them.

Who teaches young people to think this way? We live in a capitalistic society. Imagining new things is a way to accumulate capital. Happens all the time.
 
The problem is that young people are not taught to see the economy as a place where participants may imagine new things, where entrepreneurs may want to build them and investors may venture to back some of them.

Who teaches young people to think this way? We live in a capitalistic society. Imagining new things is a way to accumulate capital. Happens all the time.

Nonsense, the way to get people to imagine new things is lots of taxes and soul crushing bureaucracy.
 
The problem is that young people are not taught to see the economy as a place where participants may imagine new things, where entrepreneurs may want to build them and investors may venture to back some of them.

Who teaches young people to think this way?

Pretty much everything. Young people are told the best way to success is to just work harder (implication being for someone else).

We live in a capitalistic society. Imagining new things is a way to accumulate capital. Happens all the time.

It may happen all the time but the frequency is becoming less and less.

The Mysterious Death of Entrepreneurship in America
 
The problem is that young people are not taught to see the economy as a place where participants may imagine new things, where entrepreneurs may want to build them and investors may venture to back some of them.

Who teaches young people to think this way? We live in a capitalistic society. Imagining new things is a way to accumulate capital. Happens all the time.
Read the essay. Much of what he explains pertains to continental Europe, but he does go into the USA.
 
It may happen all the time but the frequency is becoming less and less.

Maybe if we start telling people that they didn't build that, or shame people for being successful (like the evil 1%), or arbitrarily inflate business costs (like fiat wages), we could increase the number of entrepreneurs? Nah, that can't be right.
 
It may happen all the time but the frequency is becoming less and less.

Maybe if we start telling people that they didn't build that, or shame people for being successful (like the evil 1%), or arbitrarily inflate business costs (like fiat wages), we could increase the number of entrepreneurs? Nah, that can't be right.

More and more of the 1% are people who inherited their wealth.

They were successful at being born to the right parents, like a Prince.
 
In the current New York Review of Books, Nobel Laureate Edmund Phelps has an interesting essay titled "What Is Wrong with the West’s Economies?" (source: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/what-wrong-wests-economies/).

In it, he argues that Western economies have generally failed at "inclusion" (defined as "access to jobs offering work and pay that provide self-respect"). He goes on to write


He goes onto the notion of "flourishing"( defined as "using one’s imagination, exercising one’s creativity, taking fascinating journeys into the unknown, and acting on the world"),and how current Western economies act to deter such human activity.

The essay ends with
Taking concrete actions will not help much without fresh thinking: people must first grasp that standard economics is not a guide to flourishing—it is a tool only for efficiency. Widespread flourishing in a nation requires an economy energized by its own homegrown innovation from the grassroots on up...... Of the concrete steps that would help to widen flourishing, a reform of education stands out. The problem here is not a perceived mismatch between skills taught and skills in demand. (Experts have urged greater education in STEM subjects—science, technology, engineering, and mathematics—but when Europe created specialized universities in these subjects, no innovation was observed.) The problem is that young people are not taught to see the economy as a place where participants may imagine new things, where entrepreneurs may want to build them and investors may venture to back some of them. It is essential to educate young people to this image of the economy.....
We will all have to turn from the classical fixation on wealth accumulation and efficiency to a modern economics that places imagination and creativity at the center of economic life.

Phelps is not some "leftist" ideologue, but a well-known and very accomplished mainstream economist. His ideas in the essay are thought provoking and well-worth the read. His demarcation that economics is about efficiency is something all competent and honest economists understand and try to practice.

So he acknowledges that economics is about efficiency. If it isn't about efficiency, it isn't economics. What he has here is political theory or perhaps social theory. Meanwhile, he wants us to educate our students to be better entrepreneurs. Has he really looked into how many entrepreneurs were college or even high school drop-outs? Our educational system may be failing in that regard, but I don't think our society is doing so.
 
I still think this world have been better place overall without people like Donald Trump and Mitt Romney (Sorry Jon Stewart)
 
In the current New York Review of Books, Nobel Laureate Edmund Phelps has an interesting essay titled "What Is Wrong with the West’s Economies?" (source: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/what-wrong-wests-economies/).

In it, he argues that Western economies have generally failed at "inclusion" (defined as "access to jobs offering work and pay that provide self-respect"). He goes on to write


He goes onto the notion of "flourishing"( defined as "using one’s imagination, exercising one’s creativity, taking fascinating journeys into the unknown, and acting on the world"),and how current Western economies act to deter such human activity.

The essay ends with
Taking concrete actions will not help much without fresh thinking: people must first grasp that standard economics is not a guide to flourishing—it is a tool only for efficiency. Widespread flourishing in a nation requires an economy energized by its own homegrown innovation from the grassroots on up...... Of the concrete steps that would help to widen flourishing, a reform of education stands out. The problem here is not a perceived mismatch between skills taught and skills in demand. (Experts have urged greater education in STEM subjects—science, technology, engineering, and mathematics—but when Europe created specialized universities in these subjects, no innovation was observed.) The problem is that young people are not taught to see the economy as a place where participants may imagine new things, where entrepreneurs may want to build them and investors may venture to back some of them. It is essential to educate young people to this image of the economy.....
We will all have to turn from the classical fixation on wealth accumulation and efficiency to a modern economics that places imagination and creativity at the center of economic life.

Phelps is not some "leftist" ideologue, but a well-known and very accomplished mainstream economist. His ideas in the essay are thought provoking and well-worth the read. His demarcation that economics is about efficiency is something all competent and honest economists understand and try to practice.

I don't agree at all. This is just neo-ludditism. Inefficiency for the good of mankind is completely idiotic. He focuses too much on the importance of feeling like a productive member of the community. That everybody needs a job. No, they don't. Not everybody is necessary. The economic systems of the west are now so efficient that most people don't need to work at all. We hide this fact with a bunch of hamster-wheel jobs that benefit no one.

I think we need to rethink why we work at all. As digitalisation continues and the robot revolution breaks-through this situation will only become increasingly extreme. Finding meaning from work and only flourishing because of work will in the future be a luxury.

I think we should keep the focus on wealth accumulation and efficiency, but just make work optional through basic income. Everybody wins.
 
It may happen all the time but the frequency is becoming less and less.
Maybe if we start telling people that they didn't build that,
President Obama was trying to correct a common misconception that business leaders are the only ones who do socially valuable work. A misconception celebrated in Ayn Rand's novels, it must be noted.
or shame people for being successful (like the evil 1%),
Even when it's success at rigging the socioeconomic system to their benefit? Trausti, I suggest that you try to look beyond your weeping for your heroes and ask yourself why they they have gotten such a large fraction of the national wealth. They aren't exactly being dragged off into debtor's prisons, no matter what your weepiness for them might suggest.

Even worse, if one's income is due to lending money, one will accumulate money due to receiving interest on one's loans. So if everybody pays their debts, moneylenders will suck the money out of the rest of the economy.
or arbitrarily inflate business costs (like fiat wages)
So you'd like the opposite? Maximum wages? Serfdom? Slavery? Trausti, you can't deny that putting the large majority of the population into gulags would lower labor costs drastically. From what you are saying, that is a Good Thing that would justify those gulags.
 
Who teaches young people to think this way?
Pretty much everything. Young people are told the best way to success is to just work harder (implication being for someone else).
Reminds me of Boxer the Horse in George Orwell's Animal Farm. "I will work harder". In the end, he's sold off to the slaughterhouse by the pigs, the farm's ruling class.

The economic systems of the west are now so efficient that most people don't need to work at all. We hide this fact with a bunch of hamster-wheel jobs that benefit no one.
David Graeber has made that point also.
I think we need to rethink why we work at all. As digitalisation continues and the robot revolution breaks-through this situation will only become increasingly extreme. Finding meaning from work and only flourishing because of work will in the future be a luxury.

I think we should keep the focus on wealth accumulation and efficiency, but just make work optional through basic income. Everybody wins.
Or else reduce work hours to some small amount.
 
Reminds me of Boxer the Horse in George Orwell's Animal Farm. "I will work harder". In the end, he's sold off to the slaughterhouse by the pigs, the farm's ruling class.

Ahem, yeah, that book was not about capitalism.
 
Reminds me of Boxer the Horse in George Orwell's Animal Farm. "I will work harder". In the end, he's sold off to the slaughterhouse by the pigs, the farm's ruling class.
Ahem, yeah, that book was not about capitalism.
I was making an ANALOGY.

BTW, I think that it would be nice to write a capitalist-libertarian version of Animal Farm.
 
I don't agree at all. This is just neo-ludditism. Inefficiency for the good of mankind is completely idiotic.
Then why are you bringing it up because Phelps certainly doesn't.
He focuses too much on the importance of feeling like a productive member of the community. That everybody needs a job. No, they don't. Not everybody is necessary. The economic systems of the west are now so efficient that most people don't need to work at all. We hide this fact with a bunch of hamster-wheel jobs that benefit no one.
It is pretty clear that you either did not read the essay or don't understand it. Phelps is not arguing that people need jobs to satisfy material needs.
I think we need to rethink why we work at all. As digitalisation continues and the robot revolution breaks-through this situation will only become increasingly extreme. Finding meaning from work and only flourishing because of work will in the future be a luxury.
Maybe, maybe not.
I think we should keep the focus on wealth accumulation and efficiency, but just make work optional through basic income. Everybody wins.
No, they won't, if Phelps's analysis is valid.
 
In the current New York Review of Books, Nobel Laureate Edmund Phelps has an interesting essay titled "What Is Wrong with the West’s Economies?" (source: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/aug/13/what-wrong-wests-economies/).

In it, he argues that Western economies have generally failed at "inclusion" (defined as "access to jobs offering work and pay that provide self-respect"). He goes on to write


He goes onto the notion of "flourishing"( defined as "using one’s imagination, exercising one’s creativity, taking fascinating journeys into the unknown, and acting on the world"),and how current Western economies act to deter such human activity.

The essay ends with


Phelps is not some "leftist" ideologue, but a well-known and very accomplished mainstream economist. His ideas in the essay are thought provoking and well-worth the read. His demarcation that economics is about efficiency is something all competent and honest economists understand and try to practice.

I don't agree at all. This is just neo-ludditism. Inefficiency for the good of mankind is completely idiotic. He focuses too much on the importance of feeling like a productive member of the community. That everybody needs a job. No, they don't. Not everybody is necessary.
That is besides the point.

Of course not everyone is neccesary. But everyone has a fundamental human need to BE neccesary. More importantly, society has a fundamental social need for everyone to contribute something to it.

So if people aren't needed as hamster-wheel laborers, they must be needed for SOMETHING. Mothers, fathers, teachers, gardeners, artists, poets, adventurers, whatever. That's just human nature: when we don't have a productive outlet, we turn our attention inwards and become stagnant, and that is unhealthy for society and for individuals.

People need to work. Not because WE need them to work, but because they need to be needed.

I think we need to rethink why we work at all. As digitalisation continues and the robot revolution breaks-through this situation will only become increasingly extreme. Finding meaning from work and only flourishing because of work will in the future be a luxury.
Unlikely. The greater possibility is that people who still have something meaningful to do will hoard the resources of society and those "unnecessary people" will be increasingly pushed to the fringes of society and the economy, ignored and uncared about, until something tips the balance to a crisis point.

That's either an economic crisis -- e.g. the consumer market collapses because there are too few buyers to sustain demand and too little demand to justify the supply, vicious spiral, rinse and repeat -- or a social upheaval where public law and order breaks down under the strain of constant food riots.

The alternative, of course, is to use technology to make sure everyone has something productive (or productive-seeming) to do with their lives. Which is more or less the point of this article, and it is a valid one. Show me a society is willing to write off huge chunks of its population as "unnecessary" with nothing of value to contribute to it, and I'll show you a society that is tired of existing.

I think we should keep the focus on wealth accumulation and efficiency, but just make work optional through basic income. Everybody wins.
Basic income is good. But only when coupled with BASIC EMPLOYMENT or at least the opportunities thereof. This for people who decide they want a little more out of life than "Basic," and who want to CONTRIBUTE a little more to society than "nothing."
 
I think the author is ignoring how gullible most people really are: it's a lot cheaper to just lie to people to make them feel like they are important parts of society, than actually making them an important part of society. In other words, don't give them a hamster-wheel job. Give them a World of Warcraft -like diversion, where they can satisfy their need to feel important, even if in reality they aren't.
 
Who teaches young people to think this way? We live in a capitalistic society. Imagining new things is a way to accumulate capital. Happens all the time.

Nonsense, the way to get people to imagine new things is lots of taxes and soul crushing bureaucracy.

I knew someone would bring religion into the discussion.
 
Reminds me of Boxer the Horse in George Orwell's Animal Farm. "I will work harder". In the end, he's sold off to the slaughterhouse by the pigs, the farm's ruling class.

Ahem, yeah, that book was not about capitalism.

No, it was about post-revolutionaries growing to resemble the capitalists they overthrew. The entire point of selling Boxer the Horse to a slaughterhouse was that it was exactly what the farmer (capitalist) would have done before the revolution. Hence the pigs moving into the farmer's house, wearing his clothes, and learning to stand on two legs. It's not a terribly subtle point.

Ipetrich said:
BTW, I think that it would be nice to write a capitalist-libertarian version of Animal Farm.

I'm trying to imagine... It would presumably start with killing the farmer and declaring all the animals to be free, and end with the pigs getting all the other animals to compete for food and shelter on their terms, and eating the losers. So rather than proclaimed communism leading to actual dictatorship, you get proclaimed libertarianism leading to actual oligarchy. Again, the comparison isn't direct, because Animal Farm is more about the fallibility of revolutions, rather than a particular system of government.
 
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