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U.S. Supreme Court Rules for Cake Maker

More precisely, he discriminated on the basis of the use they intended to put the cake to. If the customers had been straight people buying a wedding cake for their gay friends, the baker probably would have discriminated just as much. But if the customers had been gay people buying a wedding cake for their straight friends, I'd say probably he would not have discriminated (though he would sell them, say, brownies even if the brownies were used later in a gay wedding, but he wouldn't sell wedding cakes to be used in a gay wedding).

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The term "discrimination" has a negative connotation (for good reason); however, not all forms of discrimination (from a denotative perspective) are negative. Let us presuppose that not all forms of discrimination are negative despite the prevalence of its negative connotation. I'm trying to use a broader more palatable use of the term.

Underlying my thought pattern is a distinction (a general distinction) between what we might dub as people discrimination and product discrimination.

On the "people discrimination" front, suppose you adopt a rule that says something to the effect that if you're willing to do for one, you're willing to do for all, and if you're not willing to do for one, you'll do for none. For instance, if I sell Pepsi (actual Pepsi--not the alternative naked example), then no matter who from a protected group comes to purchase a Pepsi, I'll serve them or else serve no one.

I am still being discrimatory, but it's not people discrimination but rather product discrimination. Whether my reasoning is based in bias or bigotry doesn't alter that. If I won't sell figurines depicting two guys holding hands, that might very well be based on homophobia, but the distinction still holds. If I'm willing to sell figurines depicting only men and women holding hands, then despite homophobia, I must be willing to sell figurines depicting men and women holding hands to anyone who wants to purchase them.

If someone accuses me of being discrimatory, they're right, and if they say its based on homophobia, they may very well still be right, but so long as I don't turn away homosexuals willing to buy what it is that I'm only willing to sell, then I should not be found guilty of both kinds of discrimation.

Now, if a person wants me to photograph them naked, and if it's not a service that I provide, then naked people are welcome to come see me, but since it's not a service I provide (as I'm only in the business of photographing clothed people) they're application won't even be accepted.

Only accepted applications will be approved or rejected. This particular point has more to do with what I originally said to which you responded to than your question that I addressed in this post prior to this paragraph.

Imagine three people using a bow and arrow trying to hit a target. Some try and succeed while others try and fail. A little boy walks up with no bow and arrow and says, did I miss the target? One says, "you didn't hit the target, so you missed the target." In this instance, although it's true that he didn't hit the target, it's not true that he missed the target.

If a gay couple won't be served because of time constraints, they aren't being refused service even though they are not being serviced. The point here is just to expound on the idea that words we use have implications. Juma spoke of "denying service." Denying service implies not providing service, but the inverse is not true--kind of like how knowledge implies belief but not the other way around.

In this case, however, the service for sale was custom wedding cakes. The baker was accustomed to making custom wedding cakes. His skill is not uniquely suited or targeted to only certain and specific customers, like a female clothing store, a male clothing store, or an athletic apparel store, etcetera.

The baker discriminated, in part, based on the protected characteristic of the customers, right?


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The baker would gladly sell a custom cake to the customer he is predjudice against--but not just any custom cake.

Let's take another example to further illustrate: retail shop A and retail shop B

Owners of both retail shops dislike blacks. Both refuse to sell figurines depicting a black Santa.

Owner A will sell figurines depicting white Santas to both whites and blacks.
Owner B will sell figurines depicting white Santas to only whites.

The baker is predjudice and therefore won't sell certain things, but whatever he's willing to sell to one, he's willing to sell to all.

Your counter argument is that I'm mistaken since he claims to be in the business of selling custom cakes yet refuses to sell one to the customer he has a problem with. The problem is that even though it's true that he's in the business of selling custom cakes, he's not willing to sell just any ole custom cake regardless of who you are. He's not going to sell homo-themed cakes to straights either--for instance if a straight person wanted to buy it for his homosexual friend.

I'm not denying that it's predjudicial. I'm just pointing out a distinction that lies between the product and the people. We need to have laws that protect us from people like owner B who decide not to sell anything to members of a particular protected group. How further we will go to protect customers from those that are predjudicial is another matter.

If I find homosexuals to be devients of society, I must still sell to them if I sell to others; however, its questionable that I must also sell what I don't want to sell. The baker wants to sell custom wedding cakes, but he doesn't want to be associated with selling to homosexuals, but if he wants to remain in business, he has no choice, so he has made the choice to sell custom cakes he deems appropriate, and no matter how predjudiced he might be in his selection of how his custom cakes are, he must be willing to sell those very same cakes to anyone that might cross his path, so long as they're protected by law.

At any rate, it's a distinction, for what it's worth.

That does not seem to be this case. It seems he just wouldn't sell custom cakes for gay weddings, even if the cake did not have a gay theme.
Okay, so the baker will sell to gay people. He won't hold that against them when deciding to sell cakes not intended for gay weddings.
 
fast said:
Okay, so the baker will sell to gay people. He won't hold that against them when deciding to sell cakes not intended for gay weddings.
Right, he will hold against them the fact that they intend to use the cake for a gay wedding. An analogy: also in Colorado, a baker will sell cakes to interracial couples, as long as the cakes are not intended for interracial marriages. The baker has a firmly held belief (say, based on their religion, if you like; a number of arguments against interracial marriage were based on religion and/or theism). In both cases, their actions are/would be illegal.
 
The term "discrimination" has a negative connotation (for good reason); however, not all forms of discrimination (from a denotative perspective) are negative. Let us presuppose that not all forms of discrimination are negative despite the prevalence of its negative connotation. I'm trying to use a broader more palatable use of the term.

Underlying my thought pattern is a distinction (a general distinction) between what we might dub as people discrimination and product discrimination.

On the "people discrimination" front, suppose you adopt a rule that says something to the effect that if you're willing to do for one, you're willing to do for all, and if you're not willing to do for one, you'll do for none. For instance, if I sell Pepsi (actual Pepsi--not the alternative naked example), then no matter who from a protected group comes to purchase a Pepsi, I'll serve them or else serve no one.

I am still being discrimatory, but it's not people discrimination but rather product discrimination. Whether my reasoning is based in bias or bigotry doesn't alter that. If I won't sell figurines depicting two guys holding hands, that might very well be based on homophobia, but the distinction still holds. If I'm willing to sell figurines depicting only men and women holding hands, then despite homophobia, I must be willing to sell figurines depicting men and women holding hands to anyone who wants to purchase them.

If someone accuses me of being discrimatory, they're right, and if they say its based on homophobia, they may very well still be right, but so long as I don't turn away homosexuals willing to buy what it is that I'm only willing to sell, then I should not be found guilty of both kinds of discrimation.

Now, if a person wants me to photograph them naked, and if it's not a service that I provide, then naked people are welcome to come see me, but since it's not a service I provide (as I'm only in the business of photographing clothed people) they're application won't even be accepted.

Only accepted applications will be approved or rejected. This particular point has more to do with what I originally said to which you responded to than your question that I addressed in this post prior to this paragraph.

Imagine three people using a bow and arrow trying to hit a target. Some try and succeed while others try and fail. A little boy walks up with no bow and arrow and says, did I miss the target? One says, "you didn't hit the target, so you missed the target." In this instance, although it's true that he didn't hit the target, it's not true that he missed the target.

If a gay couple won't be served because of time constraints, they aren't being refused service even though they are not being serviced. The point here is just to expound on the idea that words we use have implications. Juma spoke of "denying service." Denying service implies not providing service, but the inverse is not true--kind of like how knowledge implies belief but not the other way around.

In this case, however, the service for sale was custom wedding cakes. The baker was accustomed to making custom wedding cakes. His skill is not uniquely suited or targeted to only certain and specific customers, like a female clothing store, a male clothing store, or an athletic apparel store, etcetera.

The baker discriminated, in part, based on the protected characteristic of the customers, right?


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The baker would gladly sell a custom cake to the customer he is predjudice against--but not just any custom cake.

Let's take another example to further illustrate: retail shop A and retail shop B

Owners of both retail shops dislike blacks. Both refuse to sell figurines depicting a black Santa.

Owner A will sell figurines depicting white Santas to both whites and blacks.
Owner B will sell figurines depicting white Santas to only whites.

The baker is predjudice and therefore won't sell certain things, but whatever he's willing to sell to one, he's willing to sell to all.

Your counter argument is that I'm mistaken since he claims to be in the business of selling custom cakes yet refuses to sell one to the customer he has a problem with. The problem is that even though it's true that he's in the business of selling custom cakes, he's not willing to sell just any ole custom cake regardless of who you are. He's not going to sell homo-themed cakes to straights either--for instance if a straight person wanted to buy it for his homosexual friend.

I'm not denying that it's predjudicial. I'm just pointing out a distinction that lies between the product and the people. We need to have laws that protect us from people like owner B who decide not to sell anything to members of a particular protected group. How further we will go to protect customers from those that are predjudicial is another matter.

If I find homosexuals to be devients of society, I must still sell to them if I sell to others; however, its questionable that I must also sell what I don't want to sell. The baker wants to sell custom wedding cakes, but he doesn't want to be associated with selling to homosexuals, but if he wants to remain in business, he has no choice, so he has made the choice to sell custom cakes he deems appropriate, and no matter how predjudiced he might be in his selection of how his custom cakes are, he must be willing to sell those very same cakes to anyone that might cross his path, so long as they're protected by law.

At any rate, it's a distinction, for what it's worth.

No, it’s a distinction without a difference.

The service is custom made wedding cakes. He holds himself, and his business, as open to the public to make and sell custom wedding cakes. This is different from not having in stock a particular item for sale,
such as specific kind of Santa figurine. Here, his custom wedding cake making service is being sold, it’s available for sale, it’s in stock so to speak, so your comparison isn’t parallel.

He’s refusing a service he provides for sale to the public and then specifically refuses that same service to certain segment of the public. Those facts aren’t parallel to your example of an item not sold at all.



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It will take a while for the prejudice against homosexuality to be reduced in the minds of individuals.

So you still incorrectly think this is a christianity vs. homosexuality ruling issued by the court?

I know.

Your masters have told you it has nothing to do with their hatred of homosexuals.

<Peronsal attack removed--staff edit>

Unlike you I read the actual ruling. The actual words of the actual ruling have nothing to do with hypothetical hatred of homosexuals that you are projecting on to the justices.
 
The legal journalist I just watched, after reading the decision, said the decision is still very ambiguous as far as the lower courts go in referencing this decision. It provides no insight to them.

I don't believe this ruling is meant to provide precedent for future cases. (As much as I disagree with the USSC ruling here), I think SCOTUS was actually crystal clear that they were giving this specific baker a 'get out of jail free' card and were very clear that this case means bupkus for any similar cases beyond that the initial governing authority needs to keep their more hostile thoughts about the supposed motivations of religious people to themselves.
 
From what I have read on this ruling, it does not address the core issue of the state law, but the particular misuse of the process by the state civil rights commission. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this ruling is based on a procedural error not an fundamental constitutional issue. So, there is some hope that the SCOTUS will not enable these bigots to expand their constitutional right to be assholes.

As long as the original governing authority does not - on record - base their ruling in terms of "religious bigots" are seeking "to expand their constitutional right to be assholes", yes you are quite correct :lol:
 
the Colorado Civil Rights Division itself endorsed this proposition in cases involving other bakers’ creation of cakes, concluding on at least three occasions that a baker acted lawfully in declining to create cakes with decorations that demeaned gay persons or gay marriages.

In other words, when the message to be placed on the cake was an anti-gay message, the baker won, the anti-gay message customer lost, and no violation of the public accommodation law. However, when the cake maker refuses a specific and narrow service on the basis of his religious belief same sex marriage is wrong, the customer wins, the baker loses. Common theme? A particular viewpoint and belief consistently loses, a contrary view and belief wins, hence, the viewpoint discrimination component.


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This is the old argument, and one I still think will and must ultimately fail. If a baker makes wedding cakes, then he must make wedding cakes for everyone who asks. There is no different message between the exact same wedding cake if it is baked for a same-sex couple vs a heterosexual couple.
 
Bakers denied consumers the right to customize a cake with an offensive message added to it verses a gay couple denied a wedding cake without a customized message (apparently the cake is a message and speech to some people). These two things are not remotely equivalent. To say a cake with no textual message is equivalent to a cake with an outrightly offensive message is completely foolish.

I would be leery of insisting that the difference is the writing in and of itself, and nothing else matters. For once, Derec's photo reply makes a good point. Is it appropriate for some ignorant grade-school drop out to refuse to write "summa cum laude" on a cake celebrating someone's graduation with honors because the baker's "sincerely held beliefs" won't allow him to say "bad words"

And on the other hand, do we really want to say that a baker must bake a penis-shaped cake, or a swastika-shaped cake, because cake is not expressive?

I think the deciding factor is more simple than that. Does the baker make penis-shaped cakes for bachelorette parties and the male strip club down the street? If so, then the baker cannot refuse to make the penis-shaped cake for a gay man's birthday party and the gay club down the street. But if the baker does NOT make penis-shaped cakes (whether due to religious beliefs or on a 'free expression' basis), then said baker can not be forced to make a penis-shaped cake for a gay couple on the theory that cake is just cake.

With regard to the asshole trying to fake a case with his offensive written message, if I recall correctly, that baker testified that she would not have agreed to write an offensive message on a cake about anyone or any group, so again - she was not picking and choosing who she would serve (the point of 'public accommodation' laws) but picking and choosing what products/services she offers.

The Colorado baker chooses to offer wedding cakes. As such, he has to provide them to any paying customer (SCOTUS faux-pearl-clutching aside).
 
Using strong language, Gorsuch emphasized that, in the United States, “the place of secular officials isn’t to sit in judgment of religious beliefs, but only to protect their free exercise. Just as it is the ‘proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence’ that we protect speech that we hate, it must be the proudest boast of our free exercise jurisprudence that we protect religious beliefs that we find offensive.”
http://www.scotusblog.com/2018/06/o...owly-for-baker-in-same-sex-wedding-cake-case/

Is anyone else as amused as I am that Gorsuch compared the baker's position to 'hate speech'? :lol:
 
the Colorado Civil Rights Division itself endorsed this proposition in cases involving other bakers’ creation of cakes, concluding on at least three occasions that a baker acted lawfully in declining to create cakes with decorations that demeaned gay persons or gay marriages.

In other words, when the message to be placed on the cake was an anti-gay message, the baker won, the anti-gay message customer lost, and no violation of the public accommodation law. However, when the cake maker refuses a specific and narrow service on the basis of his religious belief same sex marriage is wrong, the customer wins, the baker loses. Common theme? A particular viewpoint and belief consistently loses, a contrary view and belief wins, hence, the viewpoint discrimination component.


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This is the old argument, and one I still think will and must ultimately fail. If a baker makes wedding cakes, then he must make wedding cakes for everyone who asks. There is no different message between the exact same wedding cake if it is baked for a same-sex couple vs a heterosexual couple.

I’m discussing viewpoint discrimination, which Kennedy relied upon, in part, in reversing the opinion of the Colorado courts and outcome of the commission.

The public accommodation law cannot, consistent with the 1st Amendment, be applied in a disparate manner on the basis of the viewpoint. To do so constitutes as unconstitutional application of the law. The result would be the baker wins if the public accommodation law is applied unequally on the basis of viewpoint.


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Do you think there was another baker in the Denver region who would have made a cake for them?

I am talking about a universal principle.

Something that should apply to all people in business.

None should be allowed to discriminate based only on some delusion about what is religious practice.

Many Christians will tell you it is not a part of the practice of Christianity to discriminate in this manner.

It is only a fanatical fringe (a large fringe in the US) that thinks discrimination of this kind is part of their religious practice.

This decision caters to the most religiously fanatical.

It is good only in that it shows the true nature of the people on the Court that supported it.

Religious fanatics at their core.

Then you are derailing this thread, which is quite clearly titled: U.S. Supreme Court Rules for Cake Maker

Since you chose not to read the USSC ruling that is the basis of this thread's discussion in favor of your opinion of some "universal principle", your comments are nothing more than a derail of this thread. Go start your own thread about your "universal principle"
 
<Personal insult deleted--staff edit>

I looked at the case. I know the facts of the case.

I do not need anyone to tell me what to make of the facts.

Those that worship these arbitrary contrived subjective decisions have a strange religion.
 
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I agree with Jimmy Higgins' interpretation here that there was a false equivalence in the majority decision, but I believe that Justice Ginsberg (joined by Sotomayor) also made that point in her dissent. The majority presented no evidence that the discrimination was based on messaging. It was a fairly straightforward case of discrimination, which the commission decided fairly. The baker had told the customer that he simply did not make cakes for same-sex marriages. The message-on-a-cake issue was irrelevant. There were some prejudicial statements made by a few members of the commission afterwards regarding the baker's religion, but there was no clear evidence that their religious "viewpoint" had anything to do with the actual decision by the full commission. That aspect of this case seems to have been inferred by the majority without sufficient reason, in Ginsberg and Sotomayor's opinion. And, as members of the Court, they would have had an opportunity to become aware of evidence, if it had been given.

Another point made by Ginsberg was that the Colorado court, whose decision was overturned by this ruling, had not just looked at the attitudes of the commissioners. They considered the case "de novo"--on its own merits. The baker had actually violated the Colorado antidiscrimination law, which (presumably) the SCOTUS decision was not actually overturning. So Ginsberg reasoned that there was insufficient reason to overturn the Colorado court.

Now, the majority disagreed with Ginsberg, so her opinion is just a footnote here. Nevertheless, it is a point in favor of the counterargument by Jimmy Higgins, IMO. Moreover, the practical effect of the ruling--regardless of the technical, nuanced explanation of the majority--was that the public gained the impression that SCOTUS had overturned the Colorado law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of homosexuality and same-sex marriage. It did not technically do that, but the perception of most of the media and the public is that it did. So the rhetorical logic chopping and technical nuance in the SCOTUS decision did no favors to the law that wasn't somehow being overturned. It effectively crippled the law in the eyes of the public. This is yet another example of the Roberts SCOTUS handing down a decision that will have unintended consequences in subsequent application of the law and probably end up clogging up the courts with more lawsuits seeking clarification.

I agree with your excellent analysis here
 
I watched the baker being interviewed. He says he has done cakes for gays but the particular case of a gay wedding was not something he would do. He also said he has refused work based on non gay issues as well.

Does he do cakes for straight weddings? If so, the baker is fucked.

Would you cater a skinhead party or refuse the work?

It is about general rights for all. Should a gay business be forced to cater a conservative anti gay church event?

This baker was not catering an event. He was baking a cake. And yes, if a skinhead ordered a wedding cake, the baker is obligated to fill the order as long as 'wedding cakes' is part of the services his bakery provides.

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People on both sides of religion need to embrace the idea of tolerance and mutually assured survival.

Tell it to the baker
 
When Piss Christ came out publically Christians were angry, but there was also background acknowledgement of constitutional rights of expression. There were no Christian riots.

False.

The piece later caused a scandal when it was exhibited in 1989, with detractors, including United States Senators Al D'Amato and Jesse Helms, outraged that Serrano received $15,000 for the work, and $5,000 in 1986[11] from the taxpayer-funded National Endowment for the Arts. Serrano received death threats and hate mail, and he lost grants due to the controversy.[12] Others alleged that the government funding of Piss Christ violated the separation of church and state.[13][14]

During a retrospective of Serrano's work at the National Gallery of Victoria (NGV) in 1997, the then Catholic Archbishop of Melbourne, George Pell, sought an injunction from the Supreme Court of Victoria to restrain the National Gallery of Victoria from publicly displaying Piss Christ, which was not granted. Some days later, one patron attempted to remove the work from the gallery wall, and two teenagers later attacked it with a hammer.[13] Gallery officials reported receiving death threats in response to Piss Christ.[16] The director of the NGV cancelled the show, allegedly out of concern for a Rembrandt exhibition that was also on display at the time.[13] Supporters argued that the controversy over Piss Christ is an issue of artistic freedom and freedom of speech.[16]

On April 17, 2011, a print of Piss Christ was vandalized "beyond repair" by Christian protesters while on display during the Je crois aux miracles (I believe in miracles) exhibition at the Collection Lambert, a contemporary art museum in Avignon, France.[17][18] Serrano's photo The Church was similarly vandalized in the attack.

Beginning September 27, 2012, Piss Christ was on display at the Edward Tyler Nahem gallery in New York, at the Serrano show Body and Spirit.[19] Religious groups and some lawmakers called for President Barack Obama to denounce the artwork, comparing it to the anti-Islamic film Innocence of Muslims that the White House had condemned earlier that month.[20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

And on point to the thread topic, no one has rioted about the bigoted baker, either. What we do demand is that he comply with public accomodation laws. If his "religious beliefs" prevent him from that, then he needs to find another line of work. His "religious beliefs" do not trump someone else's right to access the same services that bigoted baker provides to everyone else.
 
Here is an excellent breakdown of what happened (and the ramifications) by someone who actually knows what he’s talking about for anyone interested: I Represented The Wedding Cake Couple - We Lost The Battle But Won The War

Excellent article, thank you!

Importantly, the court declined to adopt the baker’s principal argument — and the only argument made by the Trump administration — that “expressive” businesses that object to gay and lesbian weddings have a First Amendment right to discriminate. On the contrary, the court reaffirmed our main point: that there is no general First Amendment exception to laws protecting LGBT customers from discrimination.

But what’s critical is that this reasoning is a one-time ruling for this case only. The court made clear that states are free to require businesses, including bakers, to serve gay and lesbian customers equally, including in the provision of wedding cakes. In fact, Charlie Craig and David Mullins could go right back into Masterpiece Cakeshop today and request a cake to celebrate their wedding anniversary — and if Jack Phillips refused them, he would have no First Amendment right to turn them away.

(And I kinda hope they do)
 
fast said:
Okay, so the baker will sell to gay people. He won't hold that against them when deciding to sell cakes not intended for gay weddings.
Right, he will hold against them the fact that they intend to use the cake for a gay wedding. An analogy: also in Colorado, a baker will sell cakes to interracial couples, as long as the cakes are not intended for interracial marriages. The baker has a firmly held belief (say, based on their religion, if you like; a number of arguments against interracial marriage were based on religion and/or theism). In both cases, their actions are/would be illegal.
Pretty close.

I'd rather not say "hold against them," as you did. One can find sickness in anything and make the conscious choice to discriminate on that basis. Whether they may is another issue. Going further and not selling to people is something else.

1a. One can choose to not sell items they associate with sickness.
1b. One can choose to not make items they associate with sickness.

What they shouldn't be able to do and remain in business is
2. Select who they won't sell to.

Whether that's illegal speaks to what they may do. My point in these regards would be to show there are two kinds of prohibition. Telling me that "if I sell to one, then I have to sell to all" would be limited to my having to sell to individuals no matter how predjudiced I might be. For instance, if a homosexual couple so happened to want a heterosexual-themed cake and they sent a heterosexual person in to buy a heterosexual-themed cake to be used in a homo-sexual themed wedding, I could not refuse service because the intended users of what I make is intended to be used by a group I find sickness in. Why? Because I sell heterosexual-themed cakes. Even if a homosexual wanted to buy them, I still shouldn't refuse and stand by the rule you tell me. It's people discrimination to do otherwise.

What you're saying is that the law has gone further and not only prohibits people from selling to people they take issue with but also are dictating that they must sell or make things they would not otherwise do.
 
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The baker would gladly sell a custom cake to the customer he is predjudice against--but not just any custom cake.

Let's take another example to further illustrate: retail shop A and retail shop B

Owners of both retail shops dislike blacks. Both refuse to sell figurines depicting a black Santa.

Owner A will sell figurines depicting white Santas to both whites and blacks.
Owner B will sell figurines depicting white Santas to only whites.

The baker is predjudice and therefore won't sell certain things, but whatever he's willing to sell to one, he's willing to sell to all.

Your counter argument is that I'm mistaken since he claims to be in the business of selling custom cakes yet refuses to sell one to the customer he has a problem with. The problem is that even though it's true that he's in the business of selling custom cakes, he's not willing to sell just any ole custom cake regardless of who you are. He's not going to sell homo-themed cakes to straights either--for instance if a straight person wanted to buy it for his homosexual friend.

I'm not denying that it's predjudicial. I'm just pointing out a distinction that lies between the product and the people. We need to have laws that protect us from people like owner B who decide not to sell anything to members of a particular protected group. How further we will go to protect customers from those that are predjudicial is another matter.

If I find homosexuals to be devients of society, I must still sell to them if I sell to others; however, its questionable that I must also sell what I don't want to sell. The baker wants to sell custom wedding cakes, but he doesn't want to be associated with selling to homosexuals, but if he wants to remain in business, he has no choice, so he has made the choice to sell custom cakes he deems appropriate, and no matter how predjudiced he might be in his selection of how his custom cakes are, he must be willing to sell those very same cakes to anyone that might cross his path, so long as they're protected by law.

At any rate, it's a distinction, for what it's worth.

No, it’s a distinction without a difference.

The service is custom made wedding cakes. He holds himself, and his business, as open to the public to make and sell custom wedding cakes. This is different from not having in stock a particular item for sale,
such as specific kind of Santa figurine. Here, his custom wedding cake making service is being sold, it’s available for sale, it’s in stock so to speak, so your comparison isn’t parallel.

He’s refusing a service he provides for sale to the public and then specifically refuses that same service to certain segment of the public. Those facts aren’t parallel to your example of an item not sold at all.



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Yes, the service is custom made wedding cakes, so it's true that they make custom made wedding cakes. In that is no implication that there are custom made wedding cakes they will not make or sell.

He is not committing to sell any and all kinds of wedding cakes by announcing to the world that he's in he business of selling custom wedding cakes. By being in business, however, the law should prohibit him from refusing to sell what he would otherwise sell to people not protected by law. If he sells xx to a, he must sell to b, c, and d. If he doesn't sell xy, he shouldn't have to sell to a, b, c or d.
 
fast said:
I'd rather not say "hold against them," as you did.
But it is accurate. The reason he does not sell cakes for gay weddings is that he considers such usage of the cake immoral, so he does hold the fact that they intend to use the cake for a gay wedding against them.

fast said:
What you're saying is that the law has gone further and not only prohibits people from selling to people they take issue with but also are dictating that they must sell or make things they would not otherwise do.
No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying they're not allowed to refuse to sell an item they generally sell to the public just because the person purchasing the item in question intends to use it in a gay (or, for that matter, interracial) wedding. As I pointed out in my previous post, the baker did not refuse to sell them a gay-themed wedding cake (theme was not discussed). He refused to sell them any wedding cake, because they intended to use it in a gay wedding. That's illegal, just as refusing to sell people a wedding cake because it's going to be used in an interracial wedding would be illegal.
 
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