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The Shooting of Alton Sterling

A black man laying on the ground being restrained by two police officers was shot to death by one of said officers and Derec thinks it is ok because he may have been selling dvd's out of his trunk.
I did not say he was shot because of the DVDs (no apostrophe). But him selling them might have precipitated the whole incident because apparently the gun he pointed his (illegal) gun at complained about him selling the discs.
No, he was shot because the police felt threatened, rightly or wrongly. He was armed. He struggled with the police, apparently knocking one of them to the ground. Unfortunately the shopkeeper's vertical video pans to the ground during the shooting itself.
And then he wonders why people think he is an authoritarian racist.
Because they lack basic reading comprehension?
Where is your fucking outrage now?
Fucking outrage? You mean because he apparently knocked up an underage girl? I don't think that is that big of a deal as long as it was consensual and their age difference was not too big.
 
He was merely bringing that up as character assassination.
What's wrong with that? I like to know the surrounding irrelevancies to stories. Not every utterance should be taken as an attempt to show justification for an action. Sometimes, these things help to shape (or paint) an accurate understanding (or picture) of the situation. It might be irrelevant to demonstrate one thing but revealing as to the setting or circumstances.
 
]He said that the guy being on the ground, face first with two cops above him wasn't proof that the shooting was not legit.
And it isn't. Let's await the outcome of the investigation before condemning the cops as murderers.
He also didn't say selling bootlegged DVD's and CD's was reason for being killed. He was merely bringing that up as character assassination.
That is not character assassination. I merely asked if it was a legal business or not. It was mentioned in the articles about the shooting, but the legality or lack thereof wasn't clarified.
Also, it appears now him selling the discs may have contributed to his shooting because the anonymous 911 caller apparently complained about it before Red Shirt Alton pulled his gun on him.
In general, Derec says that resisting arrest is dumb, therefore... probably fuck him.
Yes, resisting arrest is dumb. It increases your chances of getting shot by orders of magnitude. And if you aren't shot you can expect extra physical force and/or tasing, none of which are pleasant and both of which can lead to injuries. Also you can expect additional charges. So you have nothing to gain and a lot to lose.
But fuck him? No. If the shooting turns out to be unjustified the cops should be punished in accordance with the laws. But that does not make Alton's behavior either right or smart.

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I wonder where all the NRA gun nuts are on this. Will no one defend this mans right to bear arms?
I do not think NRA supports criminals on probation having guns.
 
We need to remember how difficult it is for a felon to find a well paying. In this instance, we have a man who was enterprising enough to create his own business, with his own capital. He was supporting his family and very likely carried a pistol because the possibility of being robbed was always present.

The police were unable to offer any protection or security to his business, and in the end, closed his business. While we are trying to fix blame for this tragedy, lets not forget how much harder it is for poor people to make a living and consider all the factors that led to this man's death.
 
We need to remember how difficult it is for a felon to find a well paying.
Well paying what? Job? Apparently he had enough cash for some ghetto-fabulous gold teeth.
alton-sterling-11-e1467774855385.jpg


In this instance, we have a man who was enterprising enough to create his own business, with his own capital. He was supporting his family and very likely carried a pistol because the possibility of being robbed was always present.
Hence my question about whether this business of his was legal. Also, he was not supposed to carry a gun in the first place. And when confronted by police he was supposed to tell them he was armed and allow them to disarm him.

The police were unable to offer any protection or security to his business,
Why should they, if it was illegal? Should they have provided protection to Freddie Gray's drug dealing business too?

and in the end, closed his business. While we are trying to fix blame for this tragedy, lets not forget how much harder it is for poor people to make a living and consider all the factors that led to this man's death.
All the factors. Not only those unfavorable to the police.
 
Well he wasn't shot for selling CDs. He was shot because he resisted and police thought he could shoot them with his gun. I am sure you could find instances of police shooting an armed suspect who resisted.
They shot him while laying face first into the ground with two officers atop him.

One of the only actually known parts of this shooting, and you seem to waltz right past it.

And I suppose you also know that the sun rises in the west.


(Look at the evidence. One shot was to the chest. How do you shoot someone in the chest when they're lying face down???)
 
Actually the 911 call was anonymous - is there actual evidence he was 'brandishing a gun at someone'?

We don't have evidence of him doing it but the "evidence" that he didn't is from someone who was his friend yet knew he was a felon in possession of a firearm.

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that he didn't actually threaten anyone with it, but rather that some enemy tipped the cops to get him arrested--but he fought. Fighting the cops while you have a gun on your person is an extremely stupid thing to do. Consider the elements of self defense:

Ability: He has a gun, he can kill.
Opportunity: He's within range.
Jeopardy: He's attacking the cops. The threat is clear.

Anything perceived as going for that gun is most likely going to draw a bullet.

Note that a civilian in this situation would not be justified in shooting because they initiated the confrontation--they don't have clean hands. This is one big difference between civilians and cops--cops are expected to initiate confrontations and do not forfeit their right of self defense if they do so within the proper course of their duties.
 
That doesn't show whether the shooting was justified one way or another. If he continued to struggle and police though he was going for his gun (which he carried illegally btw) than the shooting would still be justified.
In any case (even if the shooting proves to be unjustified) it's never a good idea to fight with police.


CNN's news story states that the Cops removed the gun from his pocket. He was thus, disarmed. Then shot.

They took the gun out of his pocket after the shooting.
 
The CNN article indicates 5 possible gun shots. That seems extreme.
I am more than willing to believe it could pop off in a struggle. Audio is still worth a lot in this case, especially if they have multiple video streams to sync with.

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That doesn't show whether the shooting was justified one way or another. If he continued to struggle and police though he was going for his gun (which he carried illegally btw) than the shooting would still be justified.
In any case (even if the shooting proves to be unjustified) it's never a good idea to fight with police.
CNN's news story states that the Cops removed the gun from his pocket. He was thus, disarmed. Then shot.
I have a hard time believing that. It'd be murder at that point.


cnn

He said the officers then used a stun gun on Sterling at least once before shooting.
Both got on top of him, and one ordered him not to move, Muflahi said.
The one closest to Sterling's legs yelled "gun," he said, and the shots followed.
Just five minutes before, he walked into the store getting something to drink, joking around, (and we were) calling each other names.
Abdullah Muflahi, owner of the Triple S Food Mart in Baton Rouge
After the shooting, Muflahi said an officer reached into Sterling's pocket and pulled out a gun.

Keyword: After.

And what he did 5 minutes before is irrelevant. The cops approached him because of the gun that had been reported, that's the start of the incident.
 
Also indicates the gun was in his pocket--not in his hand. Isn't LA an open carry state? How is this not murder?

Amazing how many people on here are interested in cop-bashing rather than the truth.

1) LA being an open carry state has no bearing on this as he wasn't open carrying.

2) LA requires a permit for concealed carry. A permit he certainly did not have.

3) He's a felon, he can't legally possess a gun regardless of how it's carried.

4) Look above where I address the elements of self defense.

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The CNN article indicates 5 possible gun shots. That seems extreme.
I am more than willing to believe it could pop off in a struggle. Audio is still worth a lot in this case, especially if they have multiple video streams to sync with.

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That doesn't show whether the shooting was justified one way or another. If he continued to struggle and police though he was going for his gun (which he carried illegally btw) than the shooting would still be justified.
In any case (even if the shooting proves to be unjustified) it's never a good idea to fight with police.
CNN's news story states that the Cops removed the gun from his pocket. He was thus, disarmed. Then shot.
I have a hard time believing that. It'd be murder at that point.


cnn

He said the officers then used a stun gun on Sterling at least once before shooting.
Both got on top of him, and one ordered him not to move, Muflahi said.
The one closest to Sterling's legs yelled "gun," he said, and the shots followed.
Just five minutes before, he walked into the store getting something to drink, joking around, (and we were) calling each other names.
Abdullah Muflahi, owner of the Triple S Food Mart in Baton Rouge
After the shooting, Muflahi said an officer reached into Sterling's pocket and pulled out a gun.
That indicates the gun was removed after the shooting, not before.

Also indicates the gun was in his pocket--not in his hand. Isn't LA an open carry state? How is this not murder?

La is an open carry state and pockets don't count as an open carry.

I watched the video and it appears to be clumsy policing that crosses the line of incompetent. The 911 call reported a man with a gun. The officers had every reason to think he had a concealed weapon, but chose to wrestle with him before determining if he was armed.

I've watched enough cop shows to know this method is stupid.

The video starts in the middle as such things usually do. We do not yet know what came before.
 
I am done with this thread for the next week until details come out and the dust settles.
 
There seems to be a lot of this 'argumentum ad-criminal past' shit going on by police apologists - a common excuse when cops are caught on camera acting like thugs.

Whatever he did, whenever he did it, he is now no longer a criminal. When he got out of jail he became a citizen again, free to have the same civil rights as everybody else. Many of us have been arrested before (myself included) and some of us may have even spent more than just a single night in jail for a single brush I'm sure. But even if you've fucked-up and broken the law many times, the police are to treat you as any other citizen. THAT is also the law. We all hope to be treated that way should somehow get to that point.

Should he have had that gun? Fuck no, and it does reflects badly on his character no doubt. But the way this incident escalated, and the way the cops handled a minor disturbance in progress, put a lot of lives at risk. They turned a bootlegging into a deadly exchange of firearms that could have killed innocent by-standers - not cool. I'd rather the bootlegging continue if this how we're going to solve it.

I really don't give a fuck that he's dead to be honest. But sweet mother of fuck I wish police had better procedure for handling these kind of incidents. I know procedure is what it is, but maybe it needs to be rethought.

We might be better off as a society if we ticket people over arresting them for these kind of incidents. Whether you think they are right or wrong, people understandably freak-out when they get put in hand-cuffs over something small that is going to get them a brief stay in a hellhole called jail. You can say whatever you want about the those getting arrested but I understand from experience how awful it can be. Emotions come to the surface that are not normally present, and sometime in the course of those emotions, police interpret any reaction as necessarily violent - to the point they respond with a gross misuse of force that ought to be reserved for only the most violent of people.
 
We are never going to get any more better details than the ones we have available to us now unless the officers in question had body-cam footage that isn't being released.

That said, and it really bugs me that I agree with Derrec about this, but I think the officers had enough justification to shoot their suspect.

First of all, we don't really know what happened at the beginning of this altercation, and I suspect that the police unnecessarily escalated this situation until it ended in tragedy, but ultimately that final tragedy was instigated by Mr. Sterling.

We have two videos of this incident and apparently both of them start after the police confronted Mr. Sterling. According to the shop owner the police tried to arrest Mr Sterling against one of the cars in the parking lot, but he was resisting. Because he was resisting, the officers chose to back up and try to use a taser. Apparently that didn't work the way they expected so one of the officers tackled him to the ground This is where our videos start.

Mr. Sterling was on the ground with his face pressed up against a silver car with his right side on the ground. Mr. Sterling had a handgun in the right thigh pocket of his cargo shorts. While he was pressed against the car on his right side it was impossible for him to access his weapon. Unfortunately, the officer who was pressing down on his neck and chest decided to twist Mr. Sterling's left arm back which pulled Mr. Sterling down to the ground in a face up, supine position,--with his right arm now released and partially under the car. It is at this point that the officer pressing down on Mr. Sterling's legs notices the weapon in his pocket and notifies his fellow officer. The officer pressing down on Sterling's chest draws his handgun and points it at sterling. This officer near Mr Sterling's legs warns sterling that "If you fucking move, I swear to god."

I CAN discern at this point that Mr Sterling IS moving his right hand and MAY have been able to reach his weapon in his right pocket. Mr. Sterling is also straining his neck upward at this point which is sign that he is definitely resisting the force of gravity and likely resisting the officers as well. The view of what Mr. Sterling's right hand was actually doing is completely obstructed by one of the officers, but it is easily conceivable from the way Mr. Sterling's right shoulder is moving that he might have been trying to gain access to his pocket. At this point one of the officers starts shooting.

Of course, Mr. Sterling could have been having a seizure or just been in extreme shock through this whole event after the failed tazer incident which would ALSO explain all of Mr. Sterling's movements and the fact that Mr. Sterling doesn't say a single word throughout any of the video footage.
 
Was he bootlegging? Probably, but I can buy CDs and old movies at the thrift store for 50 cents a piece and sell them for $3.
That was my question from the beginning. It has not been definitively answered. Although, the 911 caller apparently complained about him selling the discs when Alton pulled his gun out.
 
We are never going to get any more better details than the ones we have available to us now unless the officers in question had body-cam footage that isn't being released.

That said, and it really bugs me that I agree with Derrec about this, but I think the officers had enough justification to shoot their suspect.

First of all, we don't really know what happened at the beginning of this altercation, and I suspect that the police unnecessarily escalated this situation until it ended in tragedy, but ultimately that final tragedy was instigated by Mr. Sterling...
And this is my trouble with a number of these shootings. The officers have escalated the situations themselves and then put them in situations where the need to shoot has been needlessly elevated. This in of itself should make the officers liable in some manner.

Hopefully the body cameras have good audio to sync with the store camera.
 
They shot him while laying face first into the ground with two officers atop him.

One of the only actually known parts of this shooting, and you seem to waltz right past it.

And I suppose you also know that the sun rises in the west.


(Look at the evidence. One shot was to the chest. How do you shoot someone in the chest when they're lying face down???)
Care to explain the logistics of how that happened?
 
There seems to be a lot of this 'argumentum ad-criminal past' shit going on by police apologists - a common excuse when cops are caught on camera acting like thugs.
This is a legit argument, not apologetics or a fallacy. It is (often deliberately) misunderstood by police haters though. Nobody is saying that a prior record makes them fair game to be shot by police even if they didn't do anything threatening. Not at all. But it does tell us something about the person's nature and also about their motivations. Alton had extra reason not to want to be detained by police because them finding a gun on him meant he was going back to prison.
Accoridng to Heavy, Alton's criminal record was significant:
He was also a registered sex offender with a lengthy criminal record that included weapons offenses, confrontations with police officers (including one in which he was accused of wrestling with a police officer, during which a gun fell from his waistband), property crimes, and domestic violence and other batteries (see all of the court records above).
[..]
One incident stands out in the lengthy file; it involved a wrestling match with an officer that involved a gun. In 2009, the affidavit of probable cause contends that a police officer tried to pat down Sterling when Sterling resisted arrest, and the officer ended up “wrestling with the defendant on the ground” at which time a “black semi auto gun fell from his waistband.” The officer grabbed the back of Sterling’s shirt during the incident, and he was able to arrest him without further incident.
[..]In another probable cause affidavit, an officer, Corporal Paul Lockett, wrote that he was dispatched to a report of suspects trespassing at a home, where they had kicked in the front door and threatened the victim and her husband with a gun. In a probable cause affidavit accusing Sterling of burglary, the victim said that her door was kicked in and suspects presented several guns and made verbal threats.
In a sheriff’s affidavit on another date, Sterling was accused of breaking into a woman’s apartment by making a hole in the wall, and then trying to sell her goldfish for $20.
Note all these when you hear all the stories about how great a guy he was. He has prior weapons offenses and also a history of fighting with police. That makes it more likely that police genuinely felt threatened by this armed 300 lb individual.

More generally, there is a significant correlation between lengthy rap sheet and being shot by police. That is because thugs are much more likely to pose a danger to police resulting in a shooting.

Whatever he did, whenever he did it, he is now no longer a criminal.
True. He is dead now.

When he got out of jail he became a citizen again, free to have the same civil rights as everybody else.
Not quite right. Many crimes carry restrictions beyond incarceration, to wit felonies and sex crimes. Also, he seems to have been on probation at the time. So he did not have the same rights as everybody else. Most notably, he was not allowed to have a gun, and police catching him with one meant he was going back to prison.

Many of us have been arrested before (myself included) and some of us may have even spent more than just a single night in jail for a single brush I'm sure. But even if you've fucked-up and broken the law many times, the police are to treat you as any other citizen. THAT is also the law. We all hope to be treated that way should somehow get to that point.
But if the guy is a career criminal, armed with an illegal gun to boot, he is not going to behave as a regular citizen. Also, the police already suspected he was armed because of the 911 call.

Should he have had that gun? Fuck no, and it does reflects badly on his character no doubt. But the way this incident escalated, and the way the cops handled a minor disturbance in progress, put a lot of lives at risk. They turned a bootlegging into a deadly exchange of firearms that could have killed innocent by-standers - not cool. I'd rather the bootlegging continue if this how we're going to solve it.
Police were not called because of bootlegging. To turn this into an instance about bootlegging is as deceptive as saying Trayvon Martin was killed because he had Skittles or that Michael Brown was shot because he was walking in the middle of the street. No, police were called because Alton allegedly threatened somebody (who complained about him selling the discs) with his illegal gun. How were police supposed to handle it?

We might be better off as a society if we ticket people over arresting them for these kind of incidents.
You do not ticket people for aggravated assault.

Whether you think they are right or wrong, people understandably freak-out when they get put in hand-cuffs over something small that is going to get them a brief stay in a hellhole called jail.
No, it was not something small and he was facing more than a brief stay at jail. He was going back to prison. Hence the freak-out.

You can say whatever you want about the those getting arrested but I understand from experience how awful it can be. Emotions come to the surface that are not normally present, and sometime in the course of those emotions, police interpret any reaction as necessarily violent - to the point they respond with a gross misuse of force that ought to be reserved for only the most violent of people.
I fully agree that in the US police are too quick to arrest people for even minor offenses. But this is definitely not one of such cases. He possessed an illegal firearm, allegedly threatened somebody with it and was already on probation for similar offenses.
 
And I suppose you also know that the sun rises in the west.


(Look at the evidence. One shot was to the chest. How do you shoot someone in the chest when they're lying face down???)
Care to explain the logistics of how that happened?
I am interested too, since Mr. Sterling was also shot in the back.
 
Care to explain the logistics of how that happened?
I am interested too, since Mr. Sterling was also shot in the back.

The most likely scenario is the first shot was into the chest. At this time, the second officer released his hold on Sterling. Sterling then thrashed and rolled, taking the additional bullets in his back.
 
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