So I guess it is not just sports after all.......

[Ahab]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/WomensPrize/status/1371493669421867012[/TWEET]


"Detransition Baby", one of the books on their longlist, was written by a trans woman.

From the womensprizeforfiction's website:

Why is the Women’s Prize for Fiction only open to women?
The inspiration was the Booker Prize of 1991 when none of the six shortlisted books was by a woman, despite some 60% of novels published that year being by female authors. A group of women and men working in the industry – authors, publishers, agents, booksellers, librarians, journalists – therefore met to discuss the issue.

Research showed that women’s literary achievements were often not acknowledged by the major literary prizes. The idea for the Women’s Prize for Fiction – previously the Baileys Women’s Prize for Fiction and the Orange Prize for Fiction – was born.

Twenty-five years later, the Women’s Prize for Fiction is firmly established, is respected throughout the world and has made a major impact on the literary landscape in the UK and beyond. It also makes a significant difference to the profile and sales of authors shortlisted.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So 15 books written by women. 1 book written by a transgender woman. Is there some sort of concern that aspiring male authors will change their gender to win a woman's literary prize?

 

[bigfield]

This is fine, provided that trans candidates have undergone hormone-replacement therapy for a few years before writing the short-listed book, otherwise their increased grammatical density, word mass and heavier keypress would confer an unfair literary advantage.

 

[Ahab]

So 15 books written by women. 1 book written by a transgender woman. Is there some sort of concern that aspiring male authors will change their gender to win a woman's literary prize?

Of course not. I don't think any trans woman would transition for that reason.

The point is that a female that should have been on that list wasn't because a male took a spot. This was a prize list specifically started to discriminate between male and female writers due to the fact that other lists in the past have prioritized male authors.

It is another example of how the female class (the class that has so often been treated poorly by the male class throughout much of history) is being hurt by those in the male class who want to take on the gender roles traditionally associated with females.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So 15 books written by women. 1 book written by a transgender woman. Is there some sort of concern that aspiring male authors will change their gender to win a woman's literary prize?

Of course not. I don't think any trans woman would transition for that reason.

Really?

It is another example of how the female class ... is being hurt by those in the male class who want to take on the gender roles traditionally associated with females.

 

[Jarhyn]

Really?

It is another example of how the female class ... is being hurt by those in the male class who want to take on the gender roles traditionally associated with females.

Ah yes, good old fashioned sex essentialism. Now with an unhealthy dose of "sex role protectionism".

Note, this isn't "vagina awards" this is "women's" awards. Even if I were to accept the asinine claim that trans people are not meaningfully their transitional sex, this is declaring a false synonym between "female" and "woman". Genitals are not gender, and this award is not about that. It is for authors who wrote from the experience of being women.

Looks like Metaphor isn't the only one around here chasing white whales...

 

[Ahab]

Really?

It is another example of how the female class ... is being hurt by those in the male class who want to take on the gender roles traditionally associated with females.

Ah yes, good old fashioned sex essentialism. Now with an unhealthy dose of "sex role protectionism".

Better than gender essentialism.

You really want to define who is a woman or a man by how well they adhere to a culture's gender roles?

 

[Rhea]

The reason women have been excluded from many literary prizes is that their outward identity - names, pictures - is dismissed and overlooked by the boards who review. A trans woman, no matter how recent or incomplete her transition, will be subject to the same exclusion and therefore would be appropriately included in this award.

 

[TomC]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/WomensPrize/status/1371493669421867012[/TWEET]


"Detransition Baby", one of the books on their longlist, was written by a trans woman.

From the womensprizeforfiction's website:

Why is the Women’s Prize for Fiction only open to women?
The inspiration was the Booker Prize of 1991 when none of the six shortlisted books was by a woman, despite some 60% of novels published that year being by female authors. A group of women and men working in the industry – authors, publishers, agents, booksellers, librarians, journalists – therefore met to discuss the issue.

Research showed that women’s literary achievements were often not acknowledged by the major literary prizes. The idea for the Women’s Prize for Fiction – previously the Baileys Women’s Prize for Fiction and the Orange Prize for Fiction – was born.

Twenty-five years later, the Women’s Prize for Fiction is firmly established, is respected throughout the world and has made a major impact on the literary landscape in the UK and beyond. It also makes a significant difference to the profile and sales of authors shortlisted.

I don't understand the point of this OP.
A private organization decided to award prizes by their own personal standards.
What's to discuss?

If they think Torrey Peters qualified, oh well.


This has absolutely nothing to do with sports. Am I missing something?
Tom

 

[Ahab]

So 15 books written by women. 1 book written by a transgender woman. Is there some sort of concern that aspiring male authors will change their gender to win a woman's literary prize?

Of course not. I don't think any trans woman would transition for that reason.

Really?

Yes, really. Why would you think I was making a false claim? I've never heard of a trans woman transitioning in order to win a literary prize. I can't imagine that would be a reason for the transition.

I don't think the trans woman who wrote this book intended harm. But harm is still being done to the class of females by pretending that a trans woman is a female.

 

[Ahab]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/WomensPrize/status/1371493669421867012[/TWEET]


"Detransition Baby", one of the books on their longlist, was written by a trans woman.

From the womensprizeforfiction's website:

Why is the Women’s Prize for Fiction only open to women?
The inspiration was the Booker Prize of 1991 when none of the six shortlisted books was by a woman, despite some 60% of novels published that year being by female authors. A group of women and men working in the industry – authors, publishers, agents, booksellers, librarians, journalists – therefore met to discuss the issue.

Research showed that women’s literary achievements were often not acknowledged by the major literary prizes. The idea for the Women’s Prize for Fiction – previously the Baileys Women’s Prize for Fiction and the Orange Prize for Fiction – was born.

Twenty-five years later, the Women’s Prize for Fiction is firmly established, is respected throughout the world and has made a major impact on the literary landscape in the UK and beyond. It also makes a significant difference to the profile and sales of authors shortlisted.

I don't understand the point of this OP.
A private organization decided to award prizes by their own personal standards.
What's to discuss?

If they think Torrey Peters qualified, oh well.


This has absolutely nothing to do with sports. Am I missing something?
Tom

It is not just in sports that trans ideology can result in harm to the class of females. Ironically, this literary prize list was created in order to give recognition to women authors. Pretending that a trans woman is a 'real woman' does harm to those women.

 

[Rhea]

Pretending that a trans woman is a 'real woman' does harm to those women.

Disagree.

The harm done to these women is by the male-dominated publishing industry that minimizes and dismisses works that have female names attached to them or have female-appearing pictures associated with them. The trans woman author shares this harmed class and is therefore appropriate to include.

 

[Trausti]

Pretending that a trans woman is a 'real woman' does harm to those women.

Disagree.

The harm done to these women is by the male-dominated publishing industry that minimizes and dismisses works that have female names attached to them or have female-appearing pictures associated with them. The trans woman author shares this harmed class and is therefore appropriate to include.

Is it the publishing industry or consumer demand?

 

[TomC]

It is not just in sports that trans ideology can result in harm to the class of females. Ironically, this literary prize list was created in order to give recognition to women authors. Pretending that a trans woman is a 'real woman' does harm to those women.

OK.
I kinda thought it must be something like that.

But I quite disagree. If anything, confusing the issues is a little dismissive of the problem with sports. I, personally, don't find pro/Olympic level sports much more interesting than high school level(near zero). But I do understand the systemic problems with letting people who have the advantage of a male physique compete against people who don't. It's the only important human endeavor where physique is crucial that I can think of, off the top of my head.

It's definitely not a factor in writing novels.

If a sports organization decides that a particular individual doesn't match their criteria based on sex, I'm fine with that. If a magazine decides that an individual does match their criteria, I'm fine with that as well. Comparing the two does a disservice to everyone.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

Pretending that a trans woman is a 'real woman' does harm to those women.

Disagree.

The harm done to these women is by the male-dominated publishing industry that minimizes and dismisses works that have female names attached to them or have female-appearing pictures associated with them. The trans woman author shares this harmed class and is therefore appropriate to include.

Is it the publishing industry or consumer demand?

Doing the awards and choosing the promotions? That's the industry overriding consumer choice.

 

[TomC]

Pretending that a trans woman is a 'real woman' does harm to those women.

Disagree.

The harm done to these women is by the male-dominated publishing industry that minimizes and dismisses works that have female names attached to them or have female-appearing pictures associated with them. The trans woman author shares this harmed class and is therefore appropriate to include.

Is it the publishing industry or consumer demand?

There's another possibility.
Artistic merit, based on the opinions of a particular group of judges.

It's utterly subjective. But so are most art awards. It's the nature of judging art, it's very subjective.
There are "best seller" lists, which are completely objective because they have nothing to do with artistic merit. It's all about sales. The New York Times best-selling list doesn't judge the people who buy the books(well probably they do in the reviews), they just announce who sold which books this week.
This award is about the artistic judgement of a particular group of people. Take it for what you think it's worth.

I'm not much into chick flicks and that sort of novel, so I won't be buying anything from them. Although, Transition Baby sounds more interesting than most of stuff on their list.

It's just not my thing. But why does anybody care about awards given out for art if the art doesn't appeal to them?

Tom

 

[Rhea]

But why does anybody care about awards given out for art if the art doesn't appeal to them?

Tom

Their term for it is "virtue signaling." They are trying to signal what their tribe considers a virtue. Outrage against trans. They just want to make sure outrage is part of the conversation whenever trans people come up. They want to do everything they can to make sure "trans" and "outrage" are always seen together and that "trans" is never allowed to exist without "outrage". It helps promote their world view.

 

[bilby]

Really?

Yes, really. Why would you think I was making a false claim? I've never heard of a trans woman transitioning in order to win a literary prize. I can't imagine that would be a reason for the transition.

I don't think the trans woman who wrote this book intended harm. But harm is still being done to the class of females by pretending that a trans woman is a female.

The bolded is question begging.

It's true, if (and only if) we accept as axiomatic that a trans woman is NOT female. But that's not an axiom; It's the conclusion you are seeking to defend.

The entire thread is an exercise on illogic. A body that issues awards to women has issued an award to a trans woman. There's no suggestion that they did not know that the woman in question is trans, and so it is clear that in their opinion she, as a trans woman, is qualified to be considered for the award.

If the opinion of the body that issues the awards regarding who is qualified to receive one isn't valid, then who else's opinion is to be allowed to overrule them, and why?

Their awards; Their rules.

Don't like it? Set up your own literary awards for women, and define 'women' so as to exclude trans women from consideration, for the purposes of your awards.

 

[Jarhyn]

Really?

Yes, really. Why would you think I was making a false claim? I've never heard of a trans woman transitioning in order to win a literary prize. I can't imagine that would be a reason for the transition.

I don't think the trans woman who wrote this book intended harm. But harm is still being done to the class of females by pretending that a trans woman is a female.

The bolded is question begging.

It's true, if (and only if) we accept as axiomatic that a trans woman is NOT female. But that's not an axiom; It's the conclusion you are seeking to defend.

The entire thread is an exercise on illogic. A body that issues awards to women has issued an award to a trans woman. There's no suggestion that they did not know that the woman in question is trans, and so it is clear that in their opinion she, as a trans woman, is qualified to be considered for the award.

If the opinion of the body that issues the awards regarding who is qualified to receive one isn't valid, then who else's opinion is to be allowed to overrule them, and why?

Their awards; Their rules.

Don't like it? Set up your own literary awards for women, and define 'women' so as to exclude trans women from consideration, for the purposes of your awards.

I think I could imagine the sort of works such an award would attract as nominations. Might as well just name it "The TERFie Trophies"

 

[bigfield]

The bolded is question begging.

It's true, if (and only if) we accept as axiomatic that a trans woman is NOT female. But that's not an axiom; It's the conclusion you are seeking to defend.

The entire thread is an exercise on illogic. A body that issues awards to women has issued an award to a trans woman. There's no suggestion that they did not know that the woman in question is trans, and so it is clear that in their opinion she, as a trans woman, is qualified to be considered for the award.

If the opinion of the body that issues the awards regarding who is qualified to receive one isn't valid, then who else's opinion is to be allowed to overrule them, and why?

Their awards; Their rules.

Don't like it? Set up your own literary awards for women, and define 'women' so as to exclude trans women from consideration, for the purposes of your awards.

I think I could imagine the sort of works such an award would attract as nominations. Might as well just name it "The TERFie Trophies"

Nah, they already give that one out for excellence in artificial lawns and playing surfaces.