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How do theists "know" what is real?

T.G.G. Moogly

Traditional Atheist
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
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egalitarian
I figured to repost this brief exchange from another thread:

Are you referring to faith?

I'm referring to certainty in any matter where the truth cannot be known.

I can be be absolutely certain about some matter notwithstanding your inability to know what I know.

The question I have is in any matter at all, be it religious or not, how does a person who believes in ghosts and spirits and souls and gods, a non physical reality, make decisions about what is real and what is not real. Maybe the better question is how such a person makes a decision on what is worth their time at all.

Do religious people just have a greater need for authority and so they are more likely to believe something I would casually dismiss? How do they know what to dismiss and what to take seriously? Found this informative article:

Monsters, Ghosts and Gods - Why We Believe

"Humans first started believing in the supernatural because they were trying to understand things they couldn't explain," says Benjamin Radford, a book author, paranormal investigator and managing editor of Skeptical Inquirer magazine. "It's basically the same process as mythology: At one point people didn't understand why the sun rose and set each day, so they suggested that a chariot pulled the sun across the heavens."

Before modern scientific explanations of germ theory, explained Radford, who writes the "Bad Science" column for LiveScience, people didn't understand how diseases could travel from one person to another. "They didn't understand why a child was stillborn, or why a drought occurred, so they came to believe that such events had supernatural causes," he said.
 
I don't think faith deals with reality. Hope being the foundation faith, it's a hope of reality, hope in the existence of a God, a guise of conviction, an unquestioned acceptance of theology.
 
The question I have is in any matter at all, be it religious or not, how does a person who believes in ghosts and spirits and souls and gods, a non physical reality, make decisions about what is real and what is not real. Maybe the better question is how such a person makes a decision on what is worth their time at all.

Do religious people just have a greater need for authority and so they are more likely to believe something I would casually dismiss? How do they know what to dismiss and what to take seriously? Found this informative article:
The two paragraphs do not seem to be really linked.
Do you wish to know if
a) How does a 'religious' person makes a decision on what is 'real'?
or
b)Do 'religious' people have a greater need for authority, as you phrase it?

Please advise.
 
The question I have is in any matter at all, be it religious or not, how does a person who believes in ghosts and spirits and souls and gods, a non physical reality, make decisions about what is real and what is not real. Maybe the better question is how such a person makes a decision on what is worth their time at all.

Do religious people just have a greater need for authority and so they are more likely to believe something I would casually dismiss? How do they know what to dismiss and what to take seriously? Found this informative article:
The two paragraphs do not seem to be really linked.
Do you wish to know if
a) How does a 'religious' person makes a decision on what is 'real'?
or
b)Do 'religious' people have a greater need for authority, as you phrase it?

Please advise.

Religion is all about authority. What is 'real' is what the authorities say is real. You can dispute that authority, by appeal to a higher authority; Or you can decide that your preferred authority is the highest (biblical literalists, for example, claim that their specific version of the bible is the highest authority; And they tend to select, elect, or defer to a group of interpreters whose role is to explain the inconsistencies, and prioritise the conflicting advice and instructions. Roman Catholics have a formal hierarchy of authorities, with the pope at the top).

Science is directly opposed to authority. The first rule of science is "Take nobody's word for it".

Of course, in practice most "science" isn't scientific at all - life is simply too short not to use the heuristic shortcut of simply believing what you are told by qualified experts. But science as it is practiced seeks to reward the undermining of authority. If you don't have the time, money, or equipment to reproduce Millikan's famous oil drop experiment; Or to devise another way to measure the charge of a single electron, you can rely on the value found in textbooks, because the entire scientific system is configured to reward anyone who can demonstrate that the accepted 'true' value is wrong.

If you demonstrate that a scientific "fact" is in error, you get a Nobel prize.

If you attempt to demonstrate that a religious "fact" is in error, you get shunned, excommunicated, forced to start your own breakaway religion (blackjack and hookers optional), or simply set on fire.

These are two VERY different ways of establishing what is true; And the point of difference is entirely the acceptance or rejection of arguments from authority.

Religious people derive truth from authority. It's true because the bible says so; Or because the pope says so; Or because Jesus said so. (Religions other than Christianity do the same, they just use different authorities).

Scientific people derive truth from observation. It's true because they checked, really carefully; And then asked other people to check their work, and nobody's yet been able to demonstrate that it's not true.

In the real world, everyone uses a mixture of both techniques to build a worldview. The question is just how much of each people use, and what methodology they use to decide who should qualify as an authoritative source.


"SCIENCE: a way of finding things out and then making them work. ... So does RELIGION, but science is better because it comes up with more understandable excuses when it's wrong." — Terry Pratchett, Wings
 
"SCIENCE: a way of finding things out and then making them work. ... So does RELIGION, but science is better because it comes up with more understandable excuses when it's wrong." — Terry Pratchett, Wings

Love it.

"Science asks questions that may not be answered. Religion gives answers that may not be questioned."
 
I guess that the beliefs held by theists are real to the believer. The difficulties lie in reconciling the reality of faith in the mind of the believer with the reality of the external objective world, a world that does not care about faith or belief.
 
I guess that the beliefs held by theists are real to the believer. The difficulties lie in reconciling the reality of faith in the mind of the believer with the reality of the external objective world, a world that does not care about faith or belief.
A real problem is that other religions have different answers for what reality is than the answers Christians give. There is a lot more people who are of faiths different from Christianity so Christian's 'reality' is in the minority even among the religious. When will we see a debate over what is reality between Christians, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Shinto, Sikh, Hopi, etc. etc.?
 
The question I have is in any matter at all, be it religious or not, how does a person who believes in ghosts and spirits and souls and gods, a non physical reality, make decisions about what is real and what is not real. Maybe the better question is how such a person makes a decision on what is worth their time at all.

Do religious people just have a greater need for authority and so they are more likely to believe something I would casually dismiss? How do they know what to dismiss and what to take seriously? Found this informative article:
The two paragraphs do not seem to be really linked.
Do you wish to know if
a) How does a 'religious' person makes a decision on what is 'real'?
or
b)Do 'religious' people have a greater need for authority, as you phrase it?

Please advise.
I was suggesting an answer to the first paragraph with the second paragraph. My worldview is scientific - ghosts aren't apart of science so there isn't anything sacred or taboo, only what can be learned by observation. Sure, I can think that salting a rabbit's tail will bring me luck but as I cannot observe such a "Truth" I would quickly drop it. Religious people can't make such an observation with their religious dogma so how do they decide what is real, other than perhaps an authoritative conviction either learned or accepted?

The article in the OP finds that folks who believe in certain flavors of woo just move on to another flavor of woo if their favored flavor drops out of fashion. The "Wooists" will alwsys find some kind of woo to call the truth but how do they decide the true woo? Is everything just woo to them because it's all based in woo?
 
Nobody refuted this;
I can be absolutely certain about some matter notwithstanding your inability to know what I know.

One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river.
"Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."
"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you cannot know that they are enjoying themselves."

"And you are not me," said Chuang Tzu.


http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html
 
Nobody refuted this;
I can be absolutely certain about some matter notwithstanding your inability to know what I know.

One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river.
"Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."
"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you cannot know that they are enjoying themselves."

"And you are not me," said Chuang Tzu.


http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html


Cheers Lion, didn't know this bit of text, but of course ...I'm not you.
 
LOL
I love how Jesus used a coin in the mouth of a fish to make a similar point to Chuang Tzu
 
People were once absolutely sure the Earth was the center of the universe.

Until Einstein scientists were absolutely sure time was a constant.

Christians are absolutely sure god exists.

Absolutely sure and having irrefutable objective evidence are two different things.

Being absolutely sure is an emotional expression of faith. One can b absolutely sure and be wrong.

Christians know religious truth by feelings and interpreting reality in terms of the bible. Biblical prophesy is true because it predicts in a few lines war, plagues, earthquakes. Christians are sure it is true by wat we see today, apparently ignoring wars, plagues, and earthquakes go back to the first recorded human history.
 
LOL
I love how Jesus used a coin in the mouth of a fish to make a similar point to Chuang Tzu

He did?

Matthew 17:

24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”25 “Yes, he does,” he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

26 “From others,” Peter answered.

“Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him.27 “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”


I don't see the parallels to Chuang Tzu.
 
Nobody refuted this;
I can be absolutely certain about some matter notwithstanding your inability to know what I know.

One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river.
"Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."
"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you cannot know that they are enjoying themselves."

"And you are not me," said Chuang Tzu.


http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html

What is there to refute? People aren't psychic so they can't know what they can't know. Christians are continually being told this by atheists so it should eventually sink in if they were open to reasoning rather than just accepting as undeniable truth whatever their guru tells them.

Science is quite aware that there is much we don't know - that is why there is science, to attempt to understand more. The religious are certain that they 'know' so see no need to search further.
 
"SCIENCE: a way of finding things out and then making them work. ... So does RELIGION, but science is better because it comes up with more understandable excuses when it's wrong." — Terry Pratchett, Wings

Love it.

"Science asks questions that may not be answered. Religion gives answers that may not be questioned."

Test all things (character of inviduals) both religious and non-religious.


An excerpt from link below:

"As scientists, we like to think that science is a bastion of virtue, untouched by science fraud.....

Unfortunately, there are a number of more sinister cases, where scientists deliberately fabricated results, usually for personal fame. With the advent of corporate and politically funded research grants, poor results are becoming more dictated by policy than by scientific infallibility.""


Scientific falsification has been around in the scientific community since the inception of the idea of scientific experimentation.
https://explorable.com/scientific-falsification




6 Women Scientists Who Were Snubbed Due to Sexism

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/5/130519-women-scientists-overlooked-dna-history-science/

Excerpt:
Several people posted comments about our story that noted one name was missing from the Nobel roster: Rosalind Franklin, a British biophysicist who also studied DNA. Her data were critical to Crick and Watson's work. But it turns out that Franklin would not have been eligible for the prize—she had passed away four years before Watson, Crick, and Wilkins received the prize, and the Nobel is never awarded posthumously.
 
Nobody refuted this;
I can be absolutely certain about some matter notwithstanding your inability to know what I know.

One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river.
"Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."
"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you cannot know that they are enjoying themselves."

"And you are not me," said Chuang Tzu.


http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html


There are indicators of enjoyment. We feel enjoyment and recognize its signs in the behaviour of others. Some of course may be acting.
 
"SCIENCE: a way of finding things out and then making them work. ... So does RELIGION, but science is better because it comes up with more understandable excuses when it's wrong." — Terry Pratchett, Wings

Love it.

"Science asks questions that may not be answered. Religion gives answers that may not be questioned."

Test all things (character of inviduals) both religious and non-religious.


An excerpt from link below:

"As scientists, we like to think that science is a bastion of virtue, untouched by science fraud.....

Unfortunately, there are a number of more sinister cases, where scientists deliberately fabricated results, usually for personal fame. With the advent of corporate and politically funded research grants, poor results are becoming more dictated by policy than by scientific infallibility.""


Scientific falsification has been around in the scientific community since the inception of the idea of scientific experimentation.
https://explorable.com/scientific-falsification




6 Women Scientists Who Were Snubbed Due to Sexism

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/5/130519-women-scientists-overlooked-dna-history-science/

Excerpt:
Several people posted comments about our story that noted one name was missing from the Nobel roster: Rosalind Franklin, a British biophysicist who also studied DNA. Her data were critical to Crick and Watson's work. But it turns out that Franklin would not have been eligible for the prize—she had passed away four years before Watson, Crick, and Wilkins received the prize, and the Nobel is never awarded posthumously.

Here’s the thing that your post ignores, though:
Science HAS A MECHANISM for detecting fraud. It may not be cheap, but it is easy. Repeat the same experiment. Look at the results. If you can’t repeat the experiment, you get to write a paper saying so. And someone else tries also. If they can’t get the same results, doing the same thing that the claimaints say they did, we can demonstrate that the science claim was fraud.

This works and is used all the time in science. As was noted above, scientists clamor to be the one to falsify a bold claim that seems fishy. That’s why you know about these.


Religion has no mechanism for detecting fraud. Science does.

So again, how do you decide that you have determined something is true in religion? You cannot rely on the experiences (repeated experiments) of others. You religionists routinely discount the experiences of non-religionists as wrong, but you have no way of actually determining it’s a fraudelent religious claim that that does not make your own faith suuspect by the same logic.

Meanwhile, science can take your claims, and see if they are repeatable and reliable, and determine that they are not.
(Indeed your religion discourages this, “don’t test god! He gets pissed off!”)
 
When backed into a corner quote scripture.

You'll note my previous post was not quoting from scripture, even though I wasn't backed into a corner. It is an odd statement because the only ones that keep bringing/ quoting scripture more than we do it seems to me, in a variety of topic discussions, is you (plural).
 
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