Florida Shooter Repented - he gets Heaven?

[Ramaraksha]

It seems the Florida shooter has come to his senses, he has repented his actions it seems. He is sorry for what he has done. So, once he dies, since he is repentant, does that mean God will send him to Heaven? And what if one of the students that was killed or the football coach that was killed was an Atheist? Do they burn in hell?

I have posed this question in the Morals and Ethics section before and got zero answers - so much for our morals and ethics

The question of God's forgiveness has always bothered me - God here is a Judge - a Judge simply does not have the power to forgive. All a Judge can do is apply the law. If someone cheats another of some money - say take an old lady's retirement savings away - no judge can say, "well you seem like a good guy and you have repented, so you are free to go". No judge can simply forgive a murderer.

Only the victim or victims have that right. We have so many women that refuse to press charges against their abusive boyfriends or husbands and law can do nothing. Only the victim has the right to forgive the criminal - no one else

Yet religion happily prattles on about God's forgiveness - the reason is quite clear - they give us an easy way out. Apologizing to the victim is difficult and it doesn't end there - the victim will demand compensation, whereas with God it all stops with a few croc tears. Let's suppose a Pedophile is repentant, he has to face the victim and ask for forgiveness. The victim is ready but he will demand that the pedophile confess in public - imagine the shame and of course now the law is after you - jail time! Loss of face, loss of income! One can avoid all that with just a few croc tears of remorse - the death-bed confession is shameful, yet few see it that way

When it comes to moral values, theists are at the bottom of the barrel

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Yam the whole repentance and forgiveness thing is ethically facile, but it works great as a marketing tool to increase donations at the local church and that's what's really important to a religion.

If you know that you've got a shot to have a mulligan called on all your shit, it gives you an incentive to hang around and toss in some cash when the money plate passes by during the service.

 

[braces_for_impact]

It doesn't matter if he repents, now he'll come back as a cockroach or something. He won't have a higher nervous system, or remember why he's being punished, but if he lives a really, really good life as a cockroach, he may (once he's eaten by a toad) come back as said toad, or maybe, if he was an exemplary cockroach, a small furry marmoset. That makes so much more sense.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It doesn't matter if he repents, now he'll come back as a cockroach or something. He won't have a higher nervous system, or remember why he's being punished, but if he lives a really, really good life as a cockroach, he may (once he's eaten by a toad) come back as said toad, or maybe, if he was an exemplary cockroach, a small furry marmoset. That makes so much more sense.

It's teaches him value and self-respect ... somehow. I mean, he doesn't remember any of it in-between lives so there's no ability to actually learn lessons or grow as an individual, but apparently it makes one more of an adult.

How does one be an non-exemplary cockroach anyways? It would seem that there's a very low bar there and one would need to put a lot of work and effort into not acing it and they can't actually put in that work and effort due to not having that higher nervous system, so every one of them would pretty much get a perfect score on their cockroaching.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It doesn't matter if he repents, now he'll come back as a cockroach or something. He won't have a higher nervous system, or remember why he's being punished, but if he lives a really, really good life as a cockroach, he may (once he's eaten by a toad) come back as said toad, or maybe, if he was an exemplary cockroach, a small furry marmoset. That makes so much more sense.

It's teaches him value and self-respect ... somehow. I mean, he doesn't remember any of it in-between lives so there's no ability to actually learn lessons or grow as an individual, but apparently it makes one more of an adult.

How does one be an non-exemplary cockroach anyways? It would seem that there's a very low bar there and one would need to put a lot of work and effort into not acing it and they can't actually put in that work and effort due to not having that higher nervous system, so every one of them would pretty much get a perfect score on their cockroaching.

Maybe that's the intermediate step?
You don't go straight to cockroach, you become the guy that judges cockroaches. And it's not just a checksheet, you have to write out a status report in longhand for all the cockroaches in your jurisdiction.
"He ate shit. But he ate it well, in grand cockroachy style..." A few generations of that and being the cockroach is a relief.

 

[braces_for_impact]

It doesn't matter if he repents, now he'll come back as a cockroach or something. He won't have a higher nervous system, or remember why he's being punished, but if he lives a really, really good life as a cockroach, he may (once he's eaten by a toad) come back as said toad, or maybe, if he was an exemplary cockroach, a small furry marmoset. That makes so much more sense.

It's teaches him value and self-respect ... somehow. I mean, he doesn't remember any of it in-between lives so there's no ability to actually learn lessons or grow as an individual, but apparently it makes one more of an adult.

How does one be an non-exemplary cockroach anyways? It would seem that there's a very low bar there and one would need to put a lot of work and effort into not acing it and they can't actually put in that work and effort due to not having that higher nervous system, so every one of them would pretty much get a perfect score on their cockroaching.

Maybe that's the intermediate step?
You don't go straight to cockroach, you become the guy that judges cockroaches. And it's not just a checksheet, you have to write out a status report in longhand for all the cockroaches in your jurisdiction.
"He ate shit. But he ate it well, in grand cockroachy style..." A few generations of that and being the cockroach is a relief.

I just had an epiphany. I'm the guy judging the cockroaches...I have to go get my life in order....

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It doesn't matter if he repents, now he'll come back as a cockroach or something. He won't have a higher nervous system, or remember why he's being punished, but if he lives a really, really good life as a cockroach, he may (once he's eaten by a toad) come back as said toad, or maybe, if he was an exemplary cockroach, a small furry marmoset. That makes so much more sense.

It's teaches him value and self-respect ... somehow. I mean, he doesn't remember any of it in-between lives so there's no ability to actually learn lessons or grow as an individual, but apparently it makes one more of an adult.

How does one be an non-exemplary cockroach anyways? It would seem that there's a very low bar there and one would need to put a lot of work and effort into not acing it and they can't actually put in that work and effort due to not having that higher nervous system, so every one of them would pretty much get a perfect score on their cockroaching.

Maybe that's the intermediate step?
You don't go straight to cockroach, you become the guy that judges cockroaches. And it's not just a checksheet, you have to write out a status report in longhand for all the cockroaches in your jurisdiction.
"He ate shit. But he ate it well, in grand cockroachy style..." A few generations of that and being the cockroach is a relief.

Wouldn't you need to have been a cockroach to be able to judge one?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Maybe that's the intermediate step?
You don't go straight to cockroach, you become the guy that judges cockroaches. And it's not just a checksheet, you have to write out a status report in longhand for all the cockroaches in your jurisdiction.
"He ate shit. But he ate it well, in grand cockroachy style..." A few generations of that and being the cockroach is a relief.

Wouldn't you need to have been a cockroach to be able to judge one?

I don't know. A guy can have a job judging shoplifters and murderers without having committed either of those crimes and cockroaching seems to be a lot simpler than either. It would just be a checklist and there wouldn't be a single cockroach which has the ability to do anything except the things on the checklist, due to their underdeveloped mental state, so it's not really a job which would require a whole lot of effort. I mean, if you just spent your day checking yes in every box as opposed to actually validating the checklist against individual cockroaches, there would be absolutely no difference in the results.

There's really no way to do a bad job at being a cockroach.

 

[Keith&Co.]

There's really no way to do a bad job at being a cockroach.

Exactly.
So everyone's qualified to be a cockroach judge. But GOD the tedium...

 

[Bronzeage]

Fear of punishment is not repentance and just saying, "I'm sorry," does not make it so. I'll trust an omnipotent being to know the difference.

Humans often take comfort in illusion. Sometimes the illusion is the possibility of forgiveness, no matter how horrible we've been, and sometimes the illusion is that killing someone who did a horrible thing will make us feel better.

 

[James Brown]

What baffles me are people who forgive killers even when the killer hasn't asked for forgiveness. The only reason I can think of is that they think that if they can convey the message, "No hard feelings!" then the killer will be shocked into remorse.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What baffles me are people who forgive killers even when the killer hasn't asked for forgiveness. The only reason I can think of is that they think that if they can convey the message, "No hard feelings!" then the killer will be shocked into remorse.

No, it has nothing to do with the killer. They're telling God, or themselves, that they've reached a level of enlightenment that allows them to forgive those who trespass.

Or, maybe they have reached that level of enlightenment. maybe. Anything is possible.

But it's about them, and their internal landscape. Not the trespassant.

 

[James Brown]

What baffles me are people who forgive killers even when the killer hasn't asked for forgiveness. The only reason I can think of is that they think that if they can convey the message, "No hard feelings!" then the killer will be shocked into remorse.

No, it has nothing to do with the killer. They're telling God, or themselves, that they've reached a level of enlightenment that allows them to forgive those who trespass.

Or, maybe they have reached that level of enlightenment. maybe. Anything is possible.

But it's about them, and their internal landscape. Not the trespassant.

Makes sense. What I recall (decades ago) after another crazy teenager killed someone at his school, was some of his classmates put up a banner on their school reading, "We Forgive You, Mark!" This was less than a day after his deed.

I also remember Christian commentators criticizing this "forgiveness" arguing that not even God will forgive us if we don't ask for it, so who are these kids fooling?

It's all very strange.

 

[Vork]

I think crimes can both be against the state, and against particular persons.

A crime, say, of vandalism of public property, is against the state. Therefore, imo, a judge could reasonably forgive on behalf of the state. It wouldn't always be correct to do so, but perhaps there are cases where a judge can basically forgive the crime.

Something like rape, is against the state, (a person has massively stepped over the rules needed in society), but also a serious crime against a particular person, and it would be seen as outrageous for a judge to forgive someone in that sort of case. However, if the victim herself asks for forgiveness, then that changes things. The judge may still need to take into account things like public safety and deterrence, but I think in some cases a judge could fairly give a very large reduction in sentence.

 

[PyramidHead]

Think of what we're saying as a society: that, in addition to deterring certain behaviors by either imprisoning the perpetrator or using him as an example to dissuade others, it would also be good if he suffers for what he did. This element of retribution is so common that we don't even notice it anymore, and it's without any practical function. Why should it make any difference to anybody what happens to the immortal soul of a murderer after death? Is anything accomplished by it either way?

 

[Bronzeage]

What baffles me are people who forgive killers even when the killer hasn't asked for forgiveness. The only reason I can think of is that they think that if they can convey the message, "No hard feelings!" then the killer will be shocked into remorse.

It should be noted, no one has ever been excused for their crime, just because the victim forgave them.

One of the most misunderstood parts of Christian theology is forgiveness. Forgiveness of sins is a benefit after you are dead. It does not shield one from the consequences of their Earthly actions.

 

[Vork]

Think of what we're saying as a society: that, in addition to deterring certain behaviors by either imprisoning the perpetrator or using him as an example to dissuade others, it would also be good if he suffers for what he did. This element of retribution is so common that we don't even notice it anymore, and it's without any practical function. Why should it make any difference to anybody what happens to the immortal soul of a murderer after death? Is anything accomplished by it either way?

"Without practical function", but retributive punishment is still needed as a justification for punishment. Yes you can appeal to things like deterrence, but then why not use extreme punishments, or even punish the innocent?

 

[Ramaraksha]

It doesn't matter if he repents, now he'll come back as a cockroach or something. He won't have a higher nervous system, or remember why he's being punished, but if he lives a really, really good life as a cockroach, he may (once he's eaten by a toad) come back as said toad, or maybe, if he was an exemplary cockroach, a small furry marmoset. That makes so much more sense.

I think you are taking off on Reincarnation a bit - but that view is wrong. Basically it is a corruption of Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - or you become what you are. This young man was born a human, but he behaved more like an animal - he craved blood and that is what he will be - maybe a hyena or a wolf

 

[Ramaraksha]

Fear of punishment is not repentance and just saying, "I'm sorry," does not make it so. I'll trust an omnipotent being to know the difference.

Humans often take comfort in illusion. Sometimes the illusion is the possibility of forgiveness, no matter how horrible we've been, and sometimes the illusion is that killing someone who did a horrible thing will make us feel better.

How many people who have had heart attacks, come close to death, swear that they will change? Do they not mean it? Of course they did, with all their heart, but once out of the hospital back to regular life, most of them go back to their old habits don't they?

How many of us have made new year resolutions? Were we just kidding or did we hope to fulfill those resolutions?

That's the real problem with all this repentance stuff - it is good but it is just the first step - not the last - that is why these Death-bed confessions are so wrong - clearly there will be no follow-up, just empty words of repentance

 

[Ramaraksha]

Makes sense. What I recall (decades ago) after another crazy teenager killed someone at his school, was some of his classmates put up a banner on their school reading, "We Forgive You, Mark!" This was less than a day after his deed.
I also remember Christian commentators criticizing this "forgiveness" arguing that not even God will forgive us if we don't ask for it, so who are these kids fooling?
It's all very strange.

The last part makes sense to me - we have a saying in India - "If you don't ask, even your own mother won't give it to you" - basically saying we must ask for what we want in order to get it. Of course the unsaid part of it is that this ask is about setting goals - unless we set goals and are willing to work for it, things won't happen

As I posted, to me this whole "God forgives" seems cheap and an easy way out - only the victim has the right to forgive and facing the victim, gaining his/her forgiveness is hard, much much easier to cry a few croc tears of remorse in front on an unknown and unseeing deity