Do you think any aliens exist in the universe?

What is psychosis?

Psychosis refers to a collection of symptoms that affect the mind, where there has been some loss of contact with reality. During an episode of psychosis, a person’s thoughts and perceptions are disrupted and they may have difficulty recognizing what is real and what is not.

Click to expand...

There are now vast global net communities that mentally dwell almost exclusivity in the fantasy world of video games.

From mental health reporting they can lose the ability to communicate with fellow human beings face to face. Difficulty having simple conversations.

In the the 19th century American west if you could not tell the difference between reality and dreams or fantasy the odds were you died. Unless you had family to take care of you.

You can start calling dreams a simulation alluding to the universes as a simulation, but I call that tripping. Don't know if the word is used any more.

Simulation Theory becomes like a theology. Instead of a god or gods or spirits controlling reality it is advanced beings who creatd a simulation.

Like Christians who use the word god without definition, one imagines advanced creators of the salutation.

If gods are reflections of their human creators, then the imagined creators of a simulation we are part of are also reflections of us humans.

The claim of an unknown creator of a simulation we are in is the same as a claim of a god creating the universe.

Same question as I have in the determinism vs free will threads.

If it is free will or determinism that is true, what do you do when faced with decisions?


And back to the perennial thousands of years old question 'what is reality?'

excreationist said:

pood said:

I haven’t time to plow through all this right now cuz I am getting ready to watch the simulated World Series. So again to home in on the key question:

You actually believe you are conscious but that most (all?) others are p-zombies?

I mean, holy fuck, dude.

Sorry, I am not a p-zombie. Nor is anyone else.

And we do not live in a simulation.

Click to expand...

Like I said I normally have a "suspension of disbelief" like when people just assume a video game or movie is a kind of reality.

You said:

we don’t even know that consciousness can be simulated in the sense that people actually experience consciousness in the simulation

Click to expand...

If the Roy game is ever possible then you seem to be saying that people in it might not be conscious since maybe consciousness can't be simulated.

It comes down to whether simulations like the Roy game are possible - even thousands of years in the future... I asked a question about that in post #655

Are you saying that every character in the Roy game must be conscious because you find the concept of p-zombies repulsive?

Click to expand...

No. I don’t think any characters in any games are conscious.

I am saying WE are not p-zombies and WE are not in a game or a simulation,

pood said:

No. I don’t think any characters in any games are conscious.

Click to expand...

Including the Roy game?

pood said:

I am saying WE are not p-zombies and WE are not in a game or a simulation,

Click to expand...

Do you think simulations like the Roy game would be possible in the future? If you were in the Roy game it would seem similar to your own life including not thinking that it was a simulation while playing it.

excreationist said:

pood said:

No. I don’t think any characters in any games are conscious.

Click to expand...

Including the Roy game?

Click to expand...

Of course they are not conscious.

excreationist said:

pood said:

I am saying WE are not p-zombies and WE are not in a game or a simulation,

Click to expand...

Do you think simulations like the Roy game would be possible in the future? If you were in the Roy game it would seem similar to your own life including not thinking that it was a simulation while playing it.

Click to expand...

Again: nothing in the Roy game or any other game is conscious. WE are conscious, here in REAL LIFE. And WE do not live in a video game or a simulation.

Don’t know how I can be any clearer.

If you think you are in a simulation and are conscious but everybody else is, or most are, p-zombies, that is frankly delusional.

pood said:

Again: nothing in the Roy game or any other game is conscious. WE are conscious, here in REAL LIFE. And WE do not live in a video game or a simulation.

Don’t know how I can be any clearer.

If you think you are in a simulation and are conscious but everybody else is, or most are, p-zombies, that is frankly delusional.

Click to expand...

Could the Roy game be possible one day? Or is it impossible, even 10,000 years in the future? In the Roy game the player is conscious and their mind exists outside of the game - i.e. the player's consciousness doesn't need to be simulated.
How do you know that you are in reality and not playing something like the Roy game?

It seems your reasoning is that the idea of p-zombies are repulsive - and simulations require p-zombies - therefore simulations are repulsive and can't be possible regarding ourselves.

BTW how do you know that consciousness can't be simulated? Is it like a soul which only a god can create? And can a brain one day be hooked up to a simulation?

excreationist said:

pood said:

Again: nothing in the Roy game or any other game is conscious. WE are conscious, here in REAL LIFE. And WE do not live in a video game or a simulation.

Don’t know how I can be any clearer.

If you think you are in a simulation and are conscious but everybody else is, or most are, p-zombies, that is frankly delusional.

Click to expand...

Could the Roy game be possible one day? Or is it impossible, even 10,000 years in the future? In the Roy game the player is conscious and their mind exists outside of the game - i.e. the player's consciousness doesn't need to be simulated.

Click to expand...

I see no reason to believe any of this possible, ever

excreationist said:

How do you know that you are in reality and not playing something like the Roy game?

Click to expand...

Did you read the PZ Myers links I gave? I have no burden to prove this bullshit is false. You have the burden to prove it is true.

excreationist said:

It seems your reasoning is that the idea of p-zombies are repulsive - and simulations require p-zombies - therefore simulations are repulsive and can't be possible regarding ourselves.

Click to expand...

Bullshit. That is not my reasoning. Stop misrepresenting what I write. What I wrote is that we have not the slightest reason to believe that most of us in REAL LIFE are p-zombies, or even that p-zombies are possible in principle. It has got nothing to do with finding them “repulsive.”

However, in ACTUAL SIMULATIONS, video games and the like, I suppose you could characterize the simulations as p-zombies. But it does not follow such exist in REAL LIFE, which is all that I am interested in.

excreationist said:

BTW how do you know that consciousness can't be simulated? Is it like a soul which only a god can create? And can a brain one day be hooked up to a simulation?

View attachment 52545

Click to expand...

What do you mean by “simulated consciousness?” We can already do that, and have been able to do that for a long time. Superman comic books “simulate” a consciousness for Superman, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olson, etc. It does not folllow that those comic books characters in ink on paper are ACTUALLY CONSCIOUS.

A SIMULATION of consciousness does not imply ACTUAL CONSCIOUSNESS,

A map can SIMULATE a PHYSICAL TERRITORY, But they are not the SAME THING.

pood said:

I see no reason to believe any of this possible, ever

Click to expand...

Well I've got to work up to it step by step. Firstly, do you think it would ever be possible for a brain to be hooked up to a simulation like this:

pood said:

Did you read the PZ Myers links I gave?

Click to expand...

See post #656. It seems he definitely only got his information about Musk's arguments from a comic book which incorrectly summed up Musk's main argument in a single panel.

pood said:

I have no burden to prove this bullshit is false. You have the burden to prove it is true.

Click to expand...

I did show many examples of what generative AI is capable of. But we need to start from the basics - like brains in vats.

pood said:

excreationist said:

It seems your reasoning is that the idea of p-zombies are repulsive - and simulations require p-zombies - therefore simulations are repulsive and can't be possible regarding ourselves.

Click to expand...

Bullshit. That is not my reasoning. Stop misrepresenting what I write.

Click to expand...

I wrote "it seems" (I mean "it seems to me"). And PZ Myers and that comic book creator misrepresented Musk. (which I explained in post #656)

pood said:

What I wrote is that we have not the slightest reason to believe that most of us in REAL LIFE are p-zombies, or even that p-zombies are possible in principle. It has got nothing to do with finding them “repulsive.”

However, in ACTUAL SIMULATIONS, video games and the like, I suppose you could characterize the simulations as p-zombies. But it does not follow such exist in REAL LIFE, which is all that I am interested in.

Click to expand...

In case you didn't realise, I don't think I'm in "real life". I believe I'm probably in a simulation. I never meant to claim that p-zombies exist in a physical world that isn't simulated.

pood said:

What do you mean by “simulated consciousness?” We can already do that, and have been able to do that for a long time. Superman comic books “simulate” a consciousness for Superman, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olson, etc. It does not folllow that those comic books characters in ink on paper on are ACTUALLY CONSCIOUS.

Click to expand...

Like I said I'm not arguing that consciousness can be simulated.

pood said:

A SIMULATION of consciousness does not imply ACTUAL CONSCIOUSNESS,

A map can SIMULATE a PHYSICAL TERRITORY, But they are not the SAME THING.

Click to expand...

If it isn't actual consciousness then it is a p-zombie. I think those are the only possibilities.

excreationist said:

Loren Pechtel said:

excreationist said:

pood said:

We don’t live in a computer simulation, Unless you got evidence otherwise?

Click to expand...

Do you believe that one day it will be possible to make a simulation that is indistinguishable from reality? If so then there would eventually be billions of them and it would be more likely we are in one than being in the real world.

Click to expand...

No, because such a simulation would have to be as complex as reality.

Click to expand...

So you're saying that in order for a person to believe that they're looking at the sun it would have to be simulated very accurately and so simulate 10^57 atoms? (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms) In rendering they normally just simulate photons so actually only a small number of the Sun's photons reach your eyes so not all 10^57 atoms in the Sun need to be simulated.

Loren Pechtel said:

But note that for most purposes it doesn't need to be indistinguishable from reality because we generally do not look at the details.

Click to expand...

I mean for a regular person they can't really tell the difference - like AI photo or video generators which are starting to get to the point where many people can't tell the difference. In a simulation everything is from a person's point of view - you can't just teleport to the Sun and investigate all of its atoms. If you were using a telescope or something the AI running the simulation could just make you see whatever you would be expecting to see. If your mind was uploaded the simulation would probably know what you are thinking and expecting, etc. People would consent to that so that the simulation is as believable as possible.

Click to expand...

You're changing your definition in the middle here.

You said "indistinguishable"--for that you need to model everything. Making it look normal is a much, much easier task. I'm thinking of a novel which for the most part eludes me at present but I do recall a scene where someone figures out they have been moved to a simulation because the cracks in the sidewalk made an image--but now they're random.

pood said:

As to us being avatars in a video game, what did I do most of my life?

Get up in the morning, shit shower and shave, and then go to work. Then come home at night, eat and drink and go to sleep. Next morning rinse and repeat.

Of course for many years I was a night worker but it was the same dynamic.

So exciting! I’m sure cosmic video programmers were rapt.

Click to expand...

Populous. You old enough to know the game?