Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

laughing dog · Sunday at 7:47 AM

DrZoidberg said:
Israel: Freedom in the World 2025 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2025 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Israel.

freedomhouse.org

Here's a helpful guide. Even with scoring. Israel is as free as any western country. Gaza is among the least free in world history

That overall score reflects more on the status of Israeli Jews yhan Arabs in Israel.You should read your own sources more carefully. Section B.4 repots political rights are unevenly protected and thatArabs in Israel face political discrimination.

The section on the rule of law(F) is quite damning to your claim. Subsection F2 of your source describes the level of due process available to Palestinians in Israel. F3 reports on torture of Palestinians in Israeli detention. F4 reports on the discrimination minorities face in Israel, Section G records harassment by private persons and the gov’t that pro human rights groups face.

Remember, this is your source, not mine, rebutting your Panglossian view.

Arctish · Monday at 3:32 AM

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

Lynch Mobs, Arson, Slaughter of Herds: West Bank Faces Unprecedented Israeli Violence

Click to expand...

In 1929 it was the Jews in Hebron (West Bank) who faced lynching, arson etc. Headline from 1929 newspaper.

True.

In 1929 a riot and massacre occurred in Hebron in which more than 60 Jews were killed and many more wounded. The entire Jewish community was traumatized and then relocated by the British, effectively ending the long history of Jewish life in that city. It was an appalling outbreak of racist, religious of violence and IMO should be roundly condemned.

Tigers! said:
It is a sad fact that 100 years later the inhabitants of the West Bank still seem to hate each other.

Bullshit.

There are haters in every ethnic and religious community. Some communities foster that hate while others fight against it. So yeah, there are some Christians and Muslims in the West Bank who hate Jews. But let's not overlook all the haters in the settlements. Zionist settlers seem to hate the non-Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank and have been stoning, harassing, robbing, and murdering them for decades, aided and protected by the IDF. Some settlements are especially notorious for the hate they foster in their residents. One might wonder why they are so intent on living in places full of people they despise but hey, it's free land for those willing to be utter assholes to get it.

And let's not overlook the majority of people who just want to go about their business and live their lives in peace.

Tigers! said:
They are seemingly incapable of living together in peace.
The passing of generations does not change that dynamic.

I wish there was an easy answer to this never ending fighting.

I really think you should take the time to learn the history of the village of Tantura.

You will probably be very surprised that in 1884 a Russian Jewish immigrant named Mordechai Bonstein moved to Tantura to start a farm. He, his wife, and their nine children were the only Jews in a village with more than 700 residents. The farm was successful and the family had good relations with their Muslim neighbors.

And you are likely to be absolutely gob-smacked that those good relations were enjoyed by European Jewish settlers who moved into Jewish settlements they built nearby, until the night the village was attacked by Zionist forces carrying out Plan Dalet. From the Wikipedia article about the Tantura massacre:

Muhammad Abu Hana, who was a child at the time of the events in Tantura recounted:

"By morning, the shooting had stopped and the attackers rounded everyone up [...] the women and children on one side, the men on the other. [...] the soldiers led groups of men away, and you could hear gunfire after each departure. [...] I saw bodies piled on a cart pulled by men of Tantura who emptied their cargo in a big pit. [...] On the road, near the railroad tracks, other bodies were scattered about."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a>

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein, a member of the local council of the nearby Jewish village of Zichron Yaacov, was a friend of Tantura's mukhtar and attempted to intercede on behalf of the villagers.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> In 2002, The News & Observer interviewed Jawdat Hindi, a daughter of Tantura's mukhtar, who said that Epstein arrived and shouted at the Jewish soldiers, and that at a later point, "he was crying, saying that we did not expect such a day and such a happening to our neighbors".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> Ilan Pappé writes that Yaacov had "managed to call a halt to the orgy of killing in Tantura, but ‘he came too late’, as one survivor commented bitterly."

Yaacov Epstein was a hero.

When he found out that Palestinians were being murdered by militant Zionists, he could have just said "Not my problem" or "But what about...?" and named some other place where people were massacred and then used that as an excuse to not even speak up about the massacre that was happening right then and there. Instead he went to Tantura and succeeded in stopping the killing. That took courage and a strong moral character.

We need more people like him in the world.

Anyway, I have repeatedly asked people to justify their claims that Semitic people in the Middle East can't get along, and/or to cite evidence of this alleged undying hostility during the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule. Perhaps you'd like to give it a go. But first read about the history of Tantura because it's going to come up.

DrZoidberg · Tuesday at 1:19 AM

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

Israel: Freedom in the World 2025 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2025 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Israel.

freedomhouse.org

Here's a helpful guide. Even with scoring. Israel is as free as any western country. Gaza is among the least free in world history

Click to expand...

That overall score reflects more on the status of Israeli Jews yhan Arabs in Israel.You should read your own sources more carefully. Section B.4 repots political rights are unevenly protected and thatArabs in Israel face political discrimination.

Yes, if they live in Gaza or west bank. The Arabs living inside Israel face no discrimination.

And you know why Arabs living in Gaza and the West bank do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens. Because they've tried murdering all Jews since 1948. That's what the conflict is about.

You are in this thread so you must know what this conflict is about? Why are you pretending not to?

laughing dog said:
The section on the rule of law(F) is quite damning to your claim. Subsection F2 of your source describes the level of due process available to Palestinians in Israel. F3 reports on torture of Palestinians in Israeli detention. F4 reports on the discrimination minorities face in Israel, Section G records harassment by private persons and the gov’t that pro human rights groups face.

Remember, this is your source, not mine, rebutting your Panglossian view.

All of this is in Gaza and the West Bank. The reason so many are arrested without proper process is due to the scale of the violence. I'm not condoning it. It's naughty behaviour by Israel. But you are moving the discussion to be about Gaza and West Bank when we're talking about the Arabs inside Israel.

DrZoidberg · Tuesday at 1:21 AM

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

Lynch Mobs, Arson, Slaughter of Herds: West Bank Faces Unprecedented Israeli Violence

Click to expand...

In 1929 it was the Jews in Hebron (West Bank) who faced lynching, arson etc. Headline from 1929 newspaper.
It is a sad fact that 100 years later the inhabitants of the West Bank still seem to hate each other.
They are seemingly incapable of living together in peace.
The passing of generations does not change that dynamic.

I wish there was an easy answer to this never ending fighting.
View attachment 52519

The Ottomans kept everyone in their place. They had separate laws for Jews and Arabs. It was unfair (to the benefit of Arabs) but this is how the Ottoman ruled things and by the standards of 1200 AD... they were extremely generous overlords.

But when Ottoman rule collapsed Jews no longer accepted being second class citizens. The Arabs didn't like that. So.. conflict. That's the background

Tigers! · Tuesday at 1:49 AM

Arctish said:
Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

Lynch Mobs, Arson, Slaughter of Herds: West Bank Faces Unprecedented Israeli Violence

Click to expand...

In 1929 it was the Jews in Hebron (West Bank) who faced lynching, arson etc. Headline from 1929 newspaper.

Click to expand...

True.

In 1929 a riot and massacre occurred in Hebron in which more than 60 Jews were killed and many more wounded. The entire Jewish community was traumatized and then relocated by the British, effectively ending the long history of Jewish life in that city. It was an appalling outbreak of racist, religious of violence and IMO should be roundly condemned.

Tigers! said:

It is a sad fact that 100 years later the inhabitants of the West Bank still seem to hate each other.

Click to expand...

Bullshit.

There are haters in every ethnic and religious community. Some communities foster that hate while others fight against it. So yeah, there are some Christians and Muslims in the West Bank who hate Jews. But let's not overlook all the haters in the settlements.

I have not overlooked the haters in the settlements. Why do you believe I have overlooked them? The expansion of the settlements must be stopped.

Arctish said:
Zionist settlers seem to hate the non-Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank and have been stoning, harassing, robbing, and murdering them for decades, aided and protected by the IDF. Some settlements are especially notorious for the hate they foster in their residents. One might wonder why they are so intent on living in places full of people they despise but hey, it's free land for those willing to be utter assholes to get it.

And let's not overlook the majority of people who just want to go about their business and live their lives in peace.

Tigers! said:

They are seemingly incapable of living together in peace.
The passing of generations does not change that dynamic.

I wish there was an easy answer to this never ending fighting.

Click to expand...

I really think you should take the time to learn the history of the village of Tantura.

I know about Tantura. A massacre that should never have happened.
Destroying an example of living together is a monstrous crime.

Arctish said:
You will probably be very surprised that in 1884 a Russian Jewish immigrant named Mordechai Bonstein moved to Tantura to start a farm. He, his wife, and their nine children were the only Jews in a village with more than 700 residents. The farm was successful and the family had good relations with their Muslim neighbors.

And you are likely to be absolutely gob-smacked that those good relations were enjoyed by European Jewish settlers who moved into Jewish settlements they built nearby, until the night the village was attacked by Zionist forces carrying out Plan Dalet. From the Wikipedia article about the Tantura massacre:

Why would I be gobsmacked? I want there to be good relations. Like you I want the inhabitants to live in peace. You seem to think you are the only one who has bothered to learn about the area and its history.
You do seem to have the opinion that I want all the persons in that area to kill each other. Not sure how you arrived at that.

Arctish said:
Muhammad Abu Hana, who was a child at the time of the events in Tantura recounted:

"By morning, the shooting had stopped and the attackers rounded everyone up [...] the women and children on one side, the men on the other. [...] the soldiers led groups of men away, and you could hear gunfire after each departure. [...] I saw bodies piled on a cart pulled by men of Tantura who emptied their cargo in a big pit. [...] On the road, near the railroad tracks, other bodies were scattered about."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a>

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein, a member of the local council of the nearby Jewish village of Zichron Yaacov, was a friend of Tantura's mukhtar and attempted to intercede on behalf of the villagers.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> In 2002, The News & Observer interviewed Jawdat Hindi, a daughter of Tantura's mukhtar, who said that Epstein arrived and shouted at the Jewish soldiers, and that at a later point, "he was crying, saying that we did not expect such a day and such a happening to our neighbors".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> Ilan Pappé writes that Yaacov had "managed to call a halt to the orgy of killing in Tantura, but ‘he came too late’, as one survivor commented bitterly."

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein was a hero.

When he found out that Palestinians were being murdered by militant Zionists, he could have just said "Not my problem" or "But what about...?" and named some other place where people were massacred and then used that as an excuse to not even speak up about the massacre that was happening right then and there. Instead he went to Tantura and succeeded in stopping the killing. That took courage and a strong moral character.

We need more people like him in the world.

We certainly do need more people like him. More power to him and his memory.

Arctish said:
Anyway, I have repeatedly asked people to justify their claims that Semitic people in the Middle East can't get along, and/or to cite evidence of this alleged undying hostility during the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule. Perhaps you'd like to give it a go. But first read about the history of Tantura because it's going to come up.

The Jews being considered second-class citizens under the dhimmi status under the Ottomans is well known.

Arctish · Tuesday at 3:07 AM

DrZoidberg said:
Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

Lynch Mobs, Arson, Slaughter of Herds: West Bank Faces Unprecedented Israeli Violence

Click to expand...

In 1929 it was the Jews in Hebron (West Bank) who faced lynching, arson etc. Headline from 1929 newspaper.
It is a sad fact that 100 years later the inhabitants of the West Bank still seem to hate each other.
They are seemingly incapable of living together in peace.
The passing of generations does not change that dynamic.

I wish there was an easy answer to this never ending fighting.
View attachment 52519

Click to expand...

The Ottomans kept everyone in their place. They had separate laws for Jews and Arabs.

History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire

The Ottomans established the millet system which featured a lot of autonomy for each village to handle local affairs. Conflicts between communities were resolved at the province level, and problems that affected multiple provinces were handled at the Imperial Court. Jews were represented at court by the Chief Rabbi.

Sultan Beyezid II's rescue of the Sephardic Jews of the Iberian Peninsula is particularly important. It set the stage for the strong ties of loyalty between the Ottoman Turks and the Jews of Palestine and Turkey:

In July 1492, the new state of Spain expelled its Jewish and Muslim populations as part of the Spanish Inquisition. Bayezid II sent out the Ottoman Navy under the command of admiral Kemal Reis to Spain in 1492 in order to evacuate them safely to Ottoman lands. He sent out proclamations throughout the empire that the refugees were to be welcomed.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_II#cite_note-13">[13]</a> He granted the refugees the permission to settle in the Ottoman Empire and become Ottoman citizens. He ridiculed the conduct of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile in expelling a class of people so useful to their subjects. "You venture to call Ferdinand a wise ruler," he said to his courtiers, "he who has impoverished his own country and enriched mine!"<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayezid_II#cite_note-JE_460-14">[14]</a> Bayezid addressed a firman to all the governors of his European provinces, ordering them not only to refrain from repelling the Spanish refugees, but to give them a friendly and welcome reception.

It also explains why the Turks were particularly outraged when their flotilla carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza was raided by the IDF.

DrZoidberg said:
It was unfair (to the benefit of Arabs) but this is how the Ottoman ruled things and by the standards of 1200 AD... they were extremely generous overlords.

But when Ottoman rule collapsed Jews no longer accepted being second class citizens. The Arabs didn't like that. So.. conflict. That's the background

Whether Jews were second class citizens depends on what you think the defining features of that status are. They had religious autonomy, local authority in their communities, were defended and protected by the military, and some Jews rose to very high positions of power in the Sultan's Court. They also had to pay an extra tax and were excluded from some areas the same as the Christians, Druze, Yazidis, and other religious minorities. However, in 1865 the Ottoman Empire officially proclaimed the equality of all subjects of the Empire. There were no second class citizens when the British took over more than fifty years later.

Anyway, the Arabs didn't like having a European empire barging in and declaring that their homeland now belonged to European immigrants. I'm sure, if you think about it, you'll see they had a legitimate gripe.

Tigers! · Tuesday at 3:48 AM

Arctish said:
DrZoidberg said:

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Anyway, the Arabs didn't like having a European empire barging in and declaring that their homeland now belonged to European immigrants. I'm sure, if you think about it, you'll see they had a legitimate gripe.

No more legitimate that the Jews rememebering they were evicted from their homeland in the 120s AD by the Romans.
That land has had so many claimants over the centuries. The most disputed land in history I daresay.

Arctish · Tuesday at 3:49 AM

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

Lynch Mobs, Arson, Slaughter of Herds: West Bank Faces Unprecedented Israeli Violence

Click to expand...

In 1929 it was the Jews in Hebron (West Bank) who faced lynching, arson etc. Headline from 1929 newspaper.

Click to expand...

True.

In 1929 a riot and massacre occurred in Hebron in which more than 60 Jews were killed and many more wounded. The entire Jewish community was traumatized and then relocated by the British, effectively ending the long history of Jewish life in that city. It was an appalling outbreak of racist, religious of violence and IMO should be roundly condemned.

Tigers! said:

It is a sad fact that 100 years later the inhabitants of the West Bank still seem to hate each other.

Click to expand...

Bullshit.

There are haters in every ethnic and religious community. Some communities foster that hate while others fight against it. So yeah, there are some Christians and Muslims in the West Bank who hate Jews. But let's not overlook all the haters in the settlements.

Click to expand...

I have not overlooked the haters in the settlements. Why do you believe I have overlooked them? The expansion of the settlements must be stopped.

Arctish said:

Zionist settlers seem to hate the non-Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank and have been stoning, harassing, robbing, and murdering them for decades, aided and protected by the IDF. Some settlements are especially notorious for the hate they foster in their residents. One might wonder why they are so intent on living in places full of people they despise but hey, it's free land for those willing to be utter assholes to get it.

And let's not overlook the majority of people who just want to go about their business and live their lives in peace.

Tigers! said:

They are seemingly incapable of living together in peace.
The passing of generations does not change that dynamic.

I wish there was an easy answer to this never ending fighting.

Click to expand...

I really think you should take the time to learn the history of the village of Tantura.

Click to expand...

I know about Tantura. A massacre that should never have happened.
Destroying an example of living together is a monstrous crime.

Arctish said:

You will probably be very surprised that in 1884 a Russian Jewish immigrant named Mordechai Bonstein moved to Tantura to start a farm. He, his wife, and their nine children were the only Jews in a village with more than 700 residents. The farm was successful and the family had good relations with their Muslim neighbors.

And you are likely to be absolutely gob-smacked that those good relations were enjoyed by European Jewish settlers who moved into Jewish settlements they built nearby, until the night the village was attacked by Zionist forces carrying out Plan Dalet. From the Wikipedia article about the Tantura massacre:

Click to expand...

Why would I be gobsmacked? I want there to be good relations. Like you I want the inhabitants to live in peace. You seem to think you are the only one who has bothered to learn about the area and its history.
You do seem to have the opinion that I want all the persons in that area to kill each other. Not sure how you arrived at that.

I don't think you want all the persons in that area to kill each other. I think you are very uncomfortable criticizing Israel for anything, even when the policies of the Israeli government and actions of individual Israelis are awful.

I posted a link to a report on the actions of violent Zionist settlers in the West Bank and your immediate response was "what about Jews in Hebron in the 1920s?" and an anti-Semitic claim that people in the West Bank are "seemingly incapable of living together in peace", and never mind that you are making no distinction there between violent racists attacking peaceful, law-abiding farmers and the farmers being attacked.

I doubt you would accept a whataboutism and an anti-Semitic claim about "never ending fighting" from an apologist for the October 7 attack (should you even encounter one). So why was that your response to a report on the terrorism being carried out in the West Bank?

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

Muhammad Abu Hana, who was a child at the time of the events in Tantura recounted:

"By morning, the shooting had stopped and the attackers rounded everyone up [...] the women and children on one side, the men on the other. [...] the soldiers led groups of men away, and you could hear gunfire after each departure. [...] I saw bodies piled on a cart pulled by men of Tantura who emptied their cargo in a big pit. [...] On the road, near the railroad tracks, other bodies were scattered about."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a>

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein, a member of the local council of the nearby Jewish village of Zichron Yaacov, was a friend of Tantura's mukhtar and attempted to intercede on behalf of the villagers.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> In 2002, The News & Observer interviewed Jawdat Hindi, a daughter of Tantura's mukhtar, who said that Epstein arrived and shouted at the Jewish soldiers, and that at a later point, "he was crying, saying that we did not expect such a day and such a happening to our neighbors".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> Ilan Pappé writes that Yaacov had "managed to call a halt to the orgy of killing in Tantura, but ‘he came too late’, as one survivor commented bitterly."

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein was a hero.

When he found out that Palestinians were being murdered by militant Zionists, he could have just said "Not my problem" or "But what about...?" and named some other place where people were massacred and then used that as an excuse to not even speak up about the massacre that was happening right then and there. Instead he went to Tantura and succeeded in stopping the killing. That took courage and a strong moral character.

We need more people like him in the world.

Click to expand...

We certainly do need more people like him. More power to him and his memory.

Arctish said:

Anyway, I have repeatedly asked people to justify their claims that Semitic people in the Middle East can't get along, and/or to cite evidence of this alleged undying hostility during the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule. Perhaps you'd like to give it a go. But first read about the history of Tantura because it's going to come up.

Click to expand...

The Jews being considered second-class citizens under the dhimmi status under the Ottomans is well known.

What it meant to have dhimmi status under the Ottoman Empire is not as clear cut as you make it sound. When a member of an ethnic or religious minority becomes the Governor of a province or the Minister of Finance, the claim they are second class citizens doesn't hold up to scrutiny even if they do face discrimination. But when Jews have to take on tasks like being street sweepers or when they can only ride donkeys, not horses, it does look like second class status. But that's a discussion about legal status and social class, not the nature of Semitic people.

You said the people of Palestine "are seemingly incapable of living together in peace", that "the passing of generations does not change that dynamic" and talked about "this never ending fighting". That's what I was focusing on.

Can you document never ending fighting among the people of Palestine when the Ottomans were in charge, or not? Why does it seem to you that Semitic people are incapable of living in peace when it appears they did exactly that for four hundred years before the Ottoman Empire fell?

Arctish · Tuesday at 3:56 AM

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

DrZoidberg said:

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Anyway, the Arabs didn't like having a European empire barging in and declaring that their homeland now belonged to European immigrants. I'm sure, if you think about it, you'll see they had a legitimate gripe.

Click to expand...

No more legitimate that the Jews rememebering they were evicted from their homeland in the 120s AD by the Romans.
That land has had so many claimants over the centuries. The most disputed land in history I daresay.

Oh ffs.

Some Jews were enslaved and taken to Europe, others voluntarily migrated over the centuries since 120 AD. Some stayed in Palestine. Some Jews who stayed in Palestine converted to other faiths, so while they remained the indigenous people of Palestine, they and their families weren't Jewish anymore.

Why should the claim some random person born and raised in Amsterdam makes about a Right to live in Jerusalem outweigh the claim of a person born and raised there? Might it be racism and religious bigotry? Because to me it sounds like arrant nonsense.

The Palestinian people who didn't want their homeland divided had a legitimate gripe, especially when the British and European powers openly said they were going to give more than half of it to European immigrants, and those immigrants openly said they were going to force the locals out.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) · Tuesday at 7:00 PM

As it happened: Israel launches strikes on Gaza after Netanyahu orders 'powerful' attacks

Israel accuses Hamas of violating the ceasefire as the group's civil defence agency says nine people have been killed in the strikes.

www.bbc.com

laughing dog · Tuesday at 7:58 PM

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

Israel: Freedom in the World 2025 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2025 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Israel.

freedomhouse.org

Here's a helpful guide. Even with scoring. Israel is as free as any western country. Gaza is among the least free in world history

Click to expand...

That overall score reflects more on the status of Israeli Jews yhan Arabs in Israel.You should read your own sources more carefully. Section B.4 repots political rights are unevenly protected and thatArabs in Israel face political discrimination.

Click to expand...

Yes, if they live in Gaza or west bank. The Arabs living inside Israel face no discrimination.

Your source disagrees.

DrZoidberg said:
And you know why Arabs living in Gaza and the West bank do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens.

Thank for admitting your claim is nonsense.

DrZoidberg said:
Because they've tried murdering all Jews since 1948. That's what the conflict is about.

You are in this thread so you must know what this conflict is about? Why are you pretending not to?

You are babbling to hide your ignorance and bigotry.

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

The section on the rule of law(F) is quite damning to your claim. Subsection F2 of your source describes the level of due process available to Palestinians in Israel. F3 reports on torture of Palestinians in Israeli detention. F4 reports on the discrimination minorities face in Israel, Section G records harassment by private persons and the gov’t that pro human rights groups face.

Remember, this is your source, not mine, rebutting your Panglossian view.

Click to expand...

All of this is in Gaza and the West Bank.

No, its not.

Tigers! · 2025-10-29T02:35:07-0700

Arctish said:
Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

Lynch Mobs, Arson, Slaughter of Herds: West Bank Faces Unprecedented Israeli Violence

Click to expand...

In 1929 it was the Jews in Hebron (West Bank) who faced lynching, arson etc. Headline from 1929 newspaper.

Click to expand...

True.

In 1929 a riot and massacre occurred in Hebron in which more than 60 Jews were killed and many more wounded. The entire Jewish community was traumatized and then relocated by the British, effectively ending the long history of Jewish life in that city. It was an appalling outbreak of racist, religious of violence and IMO should be roundly condemned.

Tigers! said:

It is a sad fact that 100 years later the inhabitants of the West Bank still seem to hate each other.

Click to expand...

Bullshit.

There are haters in every ethnic and religious community. Some communities foster that hate while others fight against it. So yeah, there are some Christians and Muslims in the West Bank who hate Jews. But let's not overlook all the haters in the settlements.

Click to expand...

I have not overlooked the haters in the settlements. Why do you believe I have overlooked them? The expansion of the settlements must be stopped.

Arctish said:

Zionist settlers seem to hate the non-Jewish inhabitants of the West Bank and have been stoning, harassing, robbing, and murdering them for decades, aided and protected by the IDF. Some settlements are especially notorious for the hate they foster in their residents. One might wonder why they are so intent on living in places full of people they despise but hey, it's free land for those willing to be utter assholes to get it.

And let's not overlook the majority of people who just want to go about their business and live their lives in peace.

Tigers! said:

They are seemingly incapable of living together in peace.
The passing of generations does not change that dynamic.

I wish there was an easy answer to this never ending fighting.

Click to expand...

I really think you should take the time to learn the history of the village of Tantura.

Click to expand...

I know about Tantura. A massacre that should never have happened.
Destroying an example of living together is a monstrous crime.

Arctish said:

You will probably be very surprised that in 1884 a Russian Jewish immigrant named Mordechai Bonstein moved to Tantura to start a farm. He, his wife, and their nine children were the only Jews in a village with more than 700 residents. The farm was successful and the family had good relations with their Muslim neighbors.

And you are likely to be absolutely gob-smacked that those good relations were enjoyed by European Jewish settlers who moved into Jewish settlements they built nearby, until the night the village was attacked by Zionist forces carrying out Plan Dalet. From the Wikipedia article about the Tantura massacre:

Click to expand...

Why would I be gobsmacked? I want there to be good relations. Like you I want the inhabitants to live in peace. You seem to think you are the only one who has bothered to learn about the area and its history.
You do seem to have the opinion that I want all the persons in that area to kill each other. Not sure how you arrived at that.

Click to expand...

I don't think you want all the persons in that area to kill each other. I think you are very uncomfortable criticizing Israel for anything, even when the policies of the Israeli government and actions of individual Israelis are awful.

I note your discomfort when you ocassionally criticise Hamas.

Arctish said:
I posted a link to a report on the actions of violent Zionist settlers in the West Bank and your immediate response was "what about Jews in Hebron in the 1920s?" and an anti-Semitic claim that people in the West Bank are "seemingly incapable of living together in peace", and never mind that you are making no distinction there between violent racists attacking peaceful, law-abiding farmers and the farmers being attacked.

I am pointing out that the hostility between Jew and Arab/Palestinian has been going on for at least 100 years. It is not a result of Oct 7th nor 1973 nor 1967 nor 1948. It predated those events.

Arctish said:
I doubt you would accept a whataboutism and an anti-Semitic claim about "never ending fighting" from an apologist for the October 7 attack (should you even encounter one). So why was that your response to a report on the terrorism being carried out in the West Bank?

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

Muhammad Abu Hana, who was a child at the time of the events in Tantura recounted:

"By morning, the shooting had stopped and the attackers rounded everyone up [...] the women and children on one side, the men on the other. [...] the soldiers led groups of men away, and you could hear gunfire after each departure. [...] I saw bodies piled on a cart pulled by men of Tantura who emptied their cargo in a big pit. [...] On the road, near the railroad tracks, other bodies were scattered about."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a>

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein, a member of the local council of the nearby Jewish village of Zichron Yaacov, was a friend of Tantura's mukhtar and attempted to intercede on behalf of the villagers.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> In 2002, The News & Observer interviewed Jawdat Hindi, a daughter of Tantura's mukhtar, who said that Epstein arrived and shouted at the Jewish soldiers, and that at a later point, "he was crying, saying that we did not expect such a day and such a happening to our neighbors".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> Ilan Pappé writes that Yaacov had "managed to call a halt to the orgy of killing in Tantura, but ‘he came too late’, as one survivor commented bitterly."

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein was a hero.

When he found out that Palestinians were being murdered by militant Zionists, he could have just said "Not my problem" or "But what about...?" and named some other place where people were massacred and then used that as an excuse to not even speak up about the massacre that was happening right then and there. Instead he went to Tantura and succeeded in stopping the killing. That took courage and a strong moral character.

We need more people like him in the world.

Click to expand...

We certainly do need more people like him. More power to him and his memory.

Arctish said:

Anyway, I have repeatedly asked people to justify their claims that Semitic people in the Middle East can't get along, and/or to cite evidence of this alleged undying hostility during the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule. Perhaps you'd like to give it a go. But first read about the history of Tantura because it's going to come up.

Click to expand...

The Jews being considered second-class citizens under the dhimmi status under the Ottomans is well known.

Click to expand...

What it meant to have dhimmi status under the Ottoman Empire is not as clear cut as you make it sound. When a member of an ethnic or religious minority becomes the Governor of a province or the Minister of Finance, the claim they are second class citizens doesn't hold up to scrutiny even if they do face discrimination. But when Jews have to take on tasks like being street sweepers or when they can only ride donkeys, not horses, it does look like second class status. But that's a discussion about legal status and social class, not the nature of Semitic people.

You said the people of Palestine "are seemingly incapable of living together in peace", that "the passing of generations does not change that dynamic" and talked about "this never ending fighting". That's what I was focusing on.

Can you document never ending fighting among the people of Palestine when the Ottomans were in charge, or not? Why does it seem to you that Semitic people are incapable of living in peace when it appears they did exactly that for four hundred years before the Ottoman Empire fell?

You are the one who keeps banging on about how the peoples of Palestine were capable of living in peace under the Ottomans. Now you are noting that they are not doing it now. Why don't you tell us what you think changed from the paradise under the Ottomans to today's situation? Rather than fling it out upon others. Set the marker for us.

Tigers! · 2025-10-29T02:41:57-0700

Arctish said:
Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

DrZoidberg said:

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Anyway, the Arabs didn't like having a European empire barging in and declaring that their homeland now belonged to European immigrants. I'm sure, if you think about it, you'll see they had a legitimate gripe.

Click to expand...

No more legitimate that the Jews rememebering they were evicted from their homeland in the 120s AD by the Romans.
That land has had so many claimants over the centuries. The most disputed land in history I daresay.

Click to expand...

Oh ffs.

Some Jews were enslaved and taken to Europe, others voluntarily migrated over the centuries since 120 AD. Some stayed in Palestine. Some Jews who stayed in Palestine converted to other faiths, so while they remained the indigenous people of Palestine, they and their families weren't Jewish anymore.

Why should the claim some random person born and raised in Amsterdam makes about a Right to live in Jerusalem outweigh the claim of a person born and raised there? Might it be racism and religious bigotry? Because to me it sounds like arrant nonsense.

The Palestinian people who didn't want their homeland divided had a legitimate gripe, especially when the British and European powers openly said they were going to give more than half of it to European immigrants, and those immigrants openly said they were going to force the locals out.

Why does/should the claim of those who came in the 7th century AD with the Muslim invaders (for example) or those who arrived after the Crusaders be anymore legitimate than those lived there for hundreds of years and were expelled by foreign invaders against their will?
I guess though that you will accept the legimatmnacy of the claim of residency for Jews born in Israel even if their recent ancestors were not.

Arctish · 2025-10-29T03:58:43-0700

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

I don't think you want all the persons in that area to kill each other. I think you are very uncomfortable criticizing Israel for anything, even when the policies of the Israeli government and actions of individual Israelis are awful.

Click to expand...

I note your discomfort when you ocassionally criticise Hamas.

Interesting. I have been calling Hamas a terrorist organization for years. And I have denounced terrorists whenever we've discussed them.

I have also criticized Fatah at times but I have clearly expressed my preference for them over Hamas due to their pursuing a diplomatic solution via the international community and the UN.

Can you provide an example where I appeared to be uncomfortable about criticizing Hamas? I'm pretty sure I called them murderous assholes at least twice in this thread. And bigoted assholes at least once.

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

I posted a link to a report on the actions of violent Zionist settlers in the West Bank and your immediate response was "what about Jews in Hebron in the 1920s?" and an anti-Semitic claim that people in the West Bank are "seemingly incapable of living together in peace", and never mind that you are making no distinction there between violent racists attacking peaceful, law-abiding farmers and the farmers being attacked.

Click to expand...

I am pointing out that the hostility between Jew and Arab/Palestinian has been going on for at least 100 years. It is not a result of Oct 7th nor 1973 nor 1967 nor 1948. It predated those events.

And I have been pointing out that the hostilities broke out during the period of social and political upheaval when the Ottoman Empire fell, the British took over the region, and armed European immigrants started arriving in large numbers with the loudly and clearly stated intention of creating a new State for themselves on land where the indigenous Palestinian population lived.

If you're not trying to claim that the people of Palestine are incapable of living together in peace then you should re-word your statement to indicate that.

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

I doubt you would accept a whataboutism and an anti-Semitic claim about "never ending fighting" from an apologist for the October 7 attack (should you even encounter one). So why was that your response to a report on the terrorism being carried out in the West Bank?

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

Muhammad Abu Hana, who was a child at the time of the events in Tantura recounted:

"By morning, the shooting had stopped and the attackers rounded everyone up [...] the women and children on one side, the men on the other. [...] the soldiers led groups of men away, and you could hear gunfire after each departure. [...] I saw bodies piled on a cart pulled by men of Tantura who emptied their cargo in a big pit. [...] On the road, near the railroad tracks, other bodies were scattered about."<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a>

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein, a member of the local council of the nearby Jewish village of Zichron Yaacov, was a friend of Tantura's mukhtar and attempted to intercede on behalf of the villagers.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-JPS2001-8">[5]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> In 2002, The News & Observer interviewed Jawdat Hindi, a daughter of Tantura's mukhtar, who said that Epstein arrived and shouted at the Jewish soldiers, and that at a later point, "he was crying, saying that we did not expect such a day and such a happening to our neighbors".<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre#cite_note-Dorell-14">[11]</a> Ilan Pappé writes that Yaacov had "managed to call a halt to the orgy of killing in Tantura, but ‘he came too late’, as one survivor commented bitterly."

Click to expand...

Yaacov Epstein was a hero.

When he found out that Palestinians were being murdered by militant Zionists, he could have just said "Not my problem" or "But what about...?" and named some other place where people were massacred and then used that as an excuse to not even speak up about the massacre that was happening right then and there. Instead he went to Tantura and succeeded in stopping the killing. That took courage and a strong moral character.

We need more people like him in the world.

Click to expand...

We certainly do need more people like him. More power to him and his memory.

Arctish said:

Anyway, I have repeatedly asked people to justify their claims that Semitic people in the Middle East can't get along, and/or to cite evidence of this alleged undying hostility during the 4 centuries of Ottoman rule. Perhaps you'd like to give it a go. But first read about the history of Tantura because it's going to come up.

Click to expand...

The Jews being considered second-class citizens under the dhimmi status under the Ottomans is well known.

Click to expand...

What it meant to have dhimmi status under the Ottoman Empire is not as clear cut as you make it sound. When a member of an ethnic or religious minority becomes the Governor of a province or the Minister of Finance, the claim they are second class citizens doesn't hold up to scrutiny even if they do face discrimination. But when Jews have to take on tasks like being street sweepers or when they can only ride donkeys, not horses, it does look like second class status. But that's a discussion about legal status and social class, not the nature of Semitic people.

You said the people of Palestine "are seemingly incapable of living together in peace", that "the passing of generations does not change that dynamic" and talked about "this never ending fighting". That's what I was focusing on.

Can you document never ending fighting among the people of Palestine when the Ottomans were in charge, or not? Why does it seem to you that Semitic people are incapable of living in peace when it appears they did exactly that for four hundred years before the Ottoman Empire fell?

Click to expand...

You are the one who keeps banging on about how the peoples of Palestine were capable of living in peace under the Ottomans. Now you are noting that they are not doing it now. Why don't you tell us what you think changed from the paradise under the Ottomans to today's situation? Rather than fling it out upon others. Set the marker for us.

I keep banging on about it because people post propaganda about how Palestinians "are seemingly incapable of living together in peace", that "the passing of generations does not change that dynamic" and then go on about "never ending fighting" as though Palestinians didn't have very peaceful lives for centuries before the Europeans came in with plans to divide the land and colonize it.

I keep banging on about it because people who prefer their propaganda with a side order of racism keep posting shit about Semitic people and non-European cultures.

I keep banging on about it because people make claims they refuse to support, like the one about Jews being enslaved by their Christian and Muslims neighbors in Palestine, and I just can't stand the willful ignorance and the lying.

I have already said what I think changed. Both this post and this one were posted in this thread. There were others as well. I guess you don't remember them. :shrug:

BTW, don't even try putting words into my mouth. I never said Palestine was a "paradise" under the Ottomans. I posted links to actual histories from reputable sources and from Wikipedia articles that cited their sources. Every system has its flaws, every community has its problems, every nation and Empire has its skeletons, and no place is a paradise for everyone who lives there.

DrZoidberg · 2025-10-29T04:07:01-0700

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

Israel: Freedom in the World 2025 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2025 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Israel.

freedomhouse.org

Here's a helpful guide. Even with scoring. Israel is as free as any western country. Gaza is among the least free in world history

Click to expand...

That overall score reflects more on the status of Israeli Jews yhan Arabs in Israel.You should read your own sources more carefully. Section B.4 repots political rights are unevenly protected and thatArabs in Israel face political discrimination.

Click to expand...

Yes, if they live in Gaza or west bank. The Arabs living inside Israel face no discrimination.

Click to expand...

Your source disagrees.

Bullshit

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

And you know why Arabs living in Gaza and the West bank do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens.

Click to expand...

Thank for admitting your claim is nonsense.

What? I don't.

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

Because they've tried murdering all Jews since 1948. That's what the conflict is about.

You are in this thread so you must know what this conflict is about? Why are you pretending not to?

Click to expand...

You are babbling to hide your ignorance and bigotry.

ha ha.. Says the guy supporting Hamas. Lol.

You can't support Hamas and then get to accuse others of bigotry. That's insane. That's like being angry at Poland for giving Germany so much grief in WW2.

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

The section on the rule of law(F) is quite damning to your claim. Subsection F2 of your source describes the level of due process available to Palestinians in Israel. F3 reports on torture of Palestinians in Israeli detention. F4 reports on the discrimination minorities face in Israel, Section G records harassment by private persons and the gov’t that pro human rights groups face.

Remember, this is your source, not mine, rebutting your Panglossian view.

Click to expand...

All of this is in Gaza and the West Bank.

Click to expand...

No, its not.

Yes, it is.

Arctish · 2025-10-29T04:28:50-0700

Tigers! said:
Arctish said:

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

DrZoidberg said:

Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Anyway, the Arabs didn't like having a European empire barging in and declaring that their homeland now belonged to European immigrants. I'm sure, if you think about it, you'll see they had a legitimate gripe.

Click to expand...

No more legitimate that the Jews rememebering they were evicted from their homeland in the 120s AD by the Romans.
That land has had so many claimants over the centuries. The most disputed land in history I daresay.

Click to expand...

Oh ffs.

Some Jews were enslaved and taken to Europe, others voluntarily migrated over the centuries since 120 AD. Some stayed in Palestine. Some Jews who stayed in Palestine converted to other faiths, so while they remained the indigenous people of Palestine, they and their families weren't Jewish anymore.

Why should the claim some random person born and raised in Amsterdam makes about a Right to live in Jerusalem outweigh the claim of a person born and raised there? Might it be racism and religious bigotry? Because to me it sounds like arrant nonsense.

The Palestinian people who didn't want their homeland divided had a legitimate gripe, especially when the British and European powers openly said they were going to give more than half of it to European immigrants, and those immigrants openly said they were going to force the locals out.

Click to expand...

Why does/should the claim of those who came in the 7th century AD with the Muslim invaders (for example) or those who arrived after the Crusaders be anymore legitimate than those lived there for hundreds of years and were expelled by foreign invaders against their will?
I guess though that you will accept the legimatmnacy of the claim of residency for Jews born in Israel even if their recent ancestors were not.

I accept the legitimacy of claims based on both ancestry and how recently families lived in the areas under discussion. I do not accept the legitimacy of claims based on religious woo, no matter how many people believe in that stuff or how ardently they believe it.

IMO a person born and raised in Jerusalem has a more legitimate claim to a Right to live there than someone who was born elsewhere, a person born to a family that has lived in the area for generations has more reason to consider it their homeland than someone whose family recently arrived, and a person whose family was driven out within the last 100 years has a more legitimate claim to a Right of Return than someone whose ancestors were driven out 1,000 years ago. So if we're going to acknowledge a Right of Return for the 1,000-years-ago group then obviously we should for the 100-years-ago group and give them priority in returning.

Frankly, I support people being allowed to live wherever they want as long as they're not being assholes about it and trying to drive out their neighbors. I don't give a flipping frack about which version of Abraham's god they believe in, if any, or what their ethnicity might be. I care about human rights, justice, and fairness.

laughing dog · 2025-10-29T07:10:52-0700

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

Israel: Freedom in the World 2025 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2025 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Israel.

freedomhouse.org

Here's a helpful guide. Even with scoring. Israel is as free as any western country. Gaza is among the least free in world history

Click to expand...

That overall score reflects more on the status of Israeli Jews yhan Arabs in Israel.You should read your own sources more carefully. Section B.4 repots political rights are unevenly protected and thatArabs in Israel face political discrimination.

Click to expand...

Yes, if they live in Gaza or west bank. The Arabs living inside Israel face no discrimination.

Click to expand...

Your source disagrees.

Click to expand...

Bullshit

This is pointless. Your own source gives examples that contradict your claims.

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

And you know why Arabs living in Gaza and the West bank do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens.

Click to expand...

Thank for admitting your claim is nonsense.

Click to expand...

What? I don't.

“Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank fo not have the same rights as Israeli citizens” directly contradicts your claim about how they will he treated.

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

Because they've tried murdering all Jews since 1948. That's what the conflict is about.

You are in this thread so you must know what this conflict is about? Why are you pretending not to?

Click to expand...

You are babbling to hide your ignorance and bigotry.

Click to expand...

ha ha.. Says the guy supporting Hamas. Lol.

You can't support Hamas and then get to accuse others of bigotry. That's insane. That's like being angry at Poland for giving Germany so much grief in WW2.

I don’t support Hamas - you fling that slander to deflect from your bigotry.

You support ethnic cleansing and accuse others of racism. According to your standards, that’s insane.

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

The section on the rule of law(F) is quite damning to your claim. Subsection F2 of your source describes the level of due process available to Palestinians in Israel. F3 reports on torture of Palestinians in Israeli detention. F4 reports on the discrimination minorities face in Israel, Section G records harassment by private persons and the gov’t that pro human rights groups face.

Remember, this is your source, not mine, rebutting your Panglossian view.

Click to expand...

All of this is in Gaza and the West Bank.

Click to expand...

No, its not.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is.

Prove it.

DrZoidberg · 2025-10-29T07:36:27-0700

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

Israel: Freedom in the World 2025 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2025 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Israel.

freedomhouse.org

Here's a helpful guide. Even with scoring. Israel is as free as any western country. Gaza is among the least free in world history

Click to expand...

That overall score reflects more on the status of Israeli Jews yhan Arabs in Israel.You should read your own sources more carefully. Section B.4 repots political rights are unevenly protected and thatArabs in Israel face political discrimination.

Click to expand...

Yes, if they live in Gaza or west bank. The Arabs living inside Israel face no discrimination.

Click to expand...

Your source disagrees.

Click to expand...

Bullshit

Click to expand...

This is pointless. Your own source gives examples that contradict your claims.

No, it doesn't.

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

And you know why Arabs living in Gaza and the West bank do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens.

Click to expand...

Thank for admitting your claim is nonsense.

Click to expand...

What? I don't.

Click to expand...

“Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank fo not have the same rights as Israeli citizens” directly contradicts your claim about how they will he treated.

You jumped into a discussion about how the Arabs living inside Israel were treated. The Arabs living in Gaza and West Bank are not subject to the same laws. So why are you bringing them up as if that is relevant to this particular conversation?

The reason being is because the Arabs in the west bank and Gaza don't want to live under Israeli rule. The Arabs living inside Israel still have the most equality and civil rights protection anywhere in the Middle East. No, it doesn't make any sense. But Arab attitudes towards Jews have never made any sense at any time. They just refuse to accept they're not the master race anymore. That's the problem

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

Because they've tried murdering all Jews since 1948. That's what the conflict is about.

You are in this thread so you must know what this conflict is about? Why are you pretending not to?

Click to expand...

You are babbling to hide your ignorance and bigotry.

Click to expand...

ha ha.. Says the guy supporting Hamas. Lol.

You can't support Hamas and then get to accuse others of bigotry. That's insane. That's like being angry at Poland for giving Germany so much grief in WW2.

Click to expand...

I don’t support Hamas - you fling that slander to deflect from your bigotry.

There's a conflict with two sides. Palestinians are represented by Hamas, and have support from the people.

Israel is the other.

You picked your side.

You support Hamas. That's what all available evidence suggest. So that's how I will treat you.

laughing dog said:
You support ethnic cleansing and accuse others of racism. According to your standards, that’s insane.

No, I have accused racists of racism. Because that's what they are.

I have never supported ethic cleansing. The only side trying to ethnically cleanse anything is Hamas, the people you support.

So take your love for fascism, bigotry and racism elsewhere please. It's unseemly

laughing dog said:
DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

The section on the rule of law(F) is quite damning to your claim. Subsection F2 of your source describes the level of due process available to Palestinians in Israel. F3 reports on torture of Palestinians in Israeli detention. F4 reports on the discrimination minorities face in Israel, Section G records harassment by private persons and the gov’t that pro human rights groups face.

Remember, this is your source, not mine, rebutting your Panglossian view.

Click to expand...

All of this is in Gaza and the West Bank.

Click to expand...

No, its not.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is.

Click to expand...

Prove it.

The source you are quoting. But you need to actually give a shit about the words in it. You can't just insert your own biases and think it proves what you want it to prove.

laughing dog · 2025-10-29T08:08:56-0700

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

Israel: Freedom in the World 2025 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2025 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Israel.

freedomhouse.org

Here's a helpful guide. Even with scoring. Israel is as free as any western country. Gaza is among the least free in world history

Click to expand...

That overall score reflects more on the status of Israeli Jews yhan Arabs in Israel.You should read your own sources more carefully. Section B.4 repots political rights are unevenly protected and thatArabs in Israel face political discrimination.

Click to expand...

Yes, if they live in Gaza or west bank. The Arabs living inside Israel face no discrimination.

Click to expand...

Your source disagrees.

Click to expand...

Bullshit

Click to expand...

This is pointless. Your own source gives examples that contradict your claims.

Click to expand...

No, it doesn't.

From section F2

The number of people in administrative detention in Israeli prisons—nearly all of whom are Palestinians from the occupied territories

"Nearly all of whom" means not every single person. I could go on with more examples.

You seem to ignore inconvenient facts.

DrZoidberg said:
You jumped into a discussion about how the Arabs living inside Israel were treated. The Arabs living in Gaza and West Bank are not subject to the same laws. So why are you bringing them up as if that is relevant to this particular conversation?

I entered a discussion where you said that the Arabs in the settlements would be treated like Arabs in Israel.

You have a problem with reading comprehension and facts.

DrZoidberg said:
Because they've tried murdering all Jews since 1948. That's what the conflict is about.

There's a conflict with two sides. Palestinians are represented by Hamas, and have support from the people.

Palestinians are not represent by Hamas in the West Bank. You seem to have a problem with facts.
To claim that Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas is a bit disingenous. Clearly the Palestinians in clans armed by Israel do not support Hamas. Nor do the Palestininans who favor the cease fire support Hamas.

You really have a problem with facts.

DrZoidberg said:
Israel is the other.

You picked your side.

You support Hamas. That's what all available evidence suggest. So that's how I will treat you.

I realize you truly believe that outrageous falsehood. You have never produced a single post supporting that claim against anyone that you have slandered with that falsehood. You equate criticizing Israel with antisemitism and supporting Hamas. Such crude "reasoning" exemplifies your posts.

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

You support ethnic cleansing and accuse others of racism. According to your standards, that’s insane.

Click to expand...

No, I have accused racists of racism. Because that's what they are.

I have never supported ethic cleansing. The only side trying to ethnically cleanse anything is Hamas, the people you support.

So take your love for fascism, bigotry and racism elsewhere please. It's unseemly

It is true that Hamas would ethnic cleanse if they had the means and opportunity. But they don't. What is going on in the West Bank is ethnic cleansing. And you support it.

DrZoidberg said:
laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

DrZoidberg said:

laughing dog said:

The section on the rule of law(F) is quite damning to your claim. Subsection F2 of your source describes the level of due process available to Palestinians in Israel. F3 reports on torture of Palestinians in Israeli detention. F4 reports on the discrimination minorities face in Israel, Section G records harassment by private persons and the gov’t that pro human rights groups face.

Remember, this is your source, not mine, rebutting your Panglossian view.

Click to expand...

All of this is in Gaza and the West Bank.

Click to expand...

No, its not.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is.

Click to expand...

Prove it.

Click to expand...

The source you are quoting But you need to actually give a shit about the words in it. You can't just insert your own biases and think it proves what you want it to prove.

Ignoring the huge irony in that fact-free dump of horseshit, earlier in this response, i showed your source rebuts your own claims.

Sorry, but reality and facts trump your biases.

Arctish · 2025-10-29T21:56:03-0700

Arctish said:
Tigers! said:

Arctish said:

War Crimes

The sniper who killed that grandma holding the hand of a 5 year old waving a white flag committed a war crime.

The soldiers who shot and killed those shirtless men waving a white flag who turned out to be escaping Israeli hostages, committed a war crime.

The IDF soldiers who shelled the refugee camps in Gaza committed war crimes.

Let's not pretend y'all wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if Hamas shelled a camp full of Israelis fleeing the fighting, or if Hamas snipers were picking off Jewish grandmas trying to get preschoolers to safety.

Click to expand...

A question without notice

Arctish
If Israel were to stop bombing Gaza, stop the settlements, not want the hostages back, release all Palestians prisoners, agree to whatever peace plan that is the Middle East peace plan de jure do you truly believe that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can?

Click to expand...

No.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc. are where violent bigots gather to plan and commit acts designed to force their opponents to comply with their desires. Just like Zionist terrorists who devised and implemented Plan Dalet. Just like the KKK keeping Black Americans separate and subjugated. Just like the Cossacks carrying out pogroms in Ukraine, the Spanish enslaving Taino in the Caribbean, and every other group who used violence to force others into submission throughout history.

There are many political parties that believe strongly in their vision of how the world should be, but when they cross the line into murder or welcome murderers into their midst they've lost all legitimacy in my view.

I think Israel needs to stop bombing Gaza because it is killing thousands of unarmed civilians. Their deaths won't make Israel any safer, it will rightfully turn more and more people against Israel.

I think Israel needs to not only stop building settlements, it needs to relocate the settlers and offer the empty housing to the Palestinians it made refugees when Zionists and the IDF destroyed their homes.

I think Israel should never stop wanting the hostages back, and not expect the Palestinians to stop wanting their people back either.

I think Israel should release everyone it is holding in administrative detention, i.e. prisoners who have never been charged with any crime, much less convicted, and should allow an impartial international panel to review the evidence and court proceedings of any non-Israeli who was convicted of a crime. There are credible allegations of torture and suppression of evidence when it comes to Palestinians accused of being enemy combatants. I think it's important for people to believe that justice, not vengeance, is being served.

I don't know the details of the peace plan de jure, but I doubt it's so sweet that every asshole in Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Hezbollah etc. would stop raiding Israel, stop launching rockets, killing Jews whenever, when ever they can. I do think a good deal would make the less fanatic back off, and the more pragmatic relent entirely. However, I also believe a sweet deal, or even any deal that allows a Palestinian State for be established on Palestine, would inspire fanatic Zionists to murder anyone who supports it, even Jews. They did it before and I expect they will do it again. Likewise for any deal that grants full and equal rights to Palestinians in a One State solution.

The challenge is to stand up to violent racist bigots and not let them be the driving force in society. Moderates are at a disadvantage when it comes to what they're willing to do to win that fight, but there is strength in numbers. I truly believe that moderates outnumber the murderous assholes in Israel and the Occupied Territories and that someday they will prevail.

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Justice, fairness, respect, and upholding the rights of all persons equally is the only thing that has ever resolved conflicts like the one going on in Israel and Palestine. The sooner we apply one single standard when we judge the rightness or wrongness of a person's or nation's acts, the better for everyone.

IMO bombing civilians who have gathered together to seek shelter, or to get a hot meal, or to enjoy a music festival, is utterly immoral no matter who did it to whom. The perpetrators must be defeated on the ground and at the ballot box, and those who have chosen diplomacy and negotiation instead of terrorism and brutality must be supported.

Tigers!, I am quoting myself here so I don't have to keep typing everything out over and over again.

If there is anything in this post you want to discuss in more detail, let me know.

Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

Contributor

Centimillionaire

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Centimillionaire

Contributor

Centimillionaire

Centimillionaire

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Centimillionaire

Contributor

Centimillionaire

Contributor

Contributor

Contributor

Centimillionaire