Would You Choose to Live in Heaven?

[southernhybrid]

This conversation is getting sillier. If there actually was a God person, it would reward atheists because we never bother it with foolish requests. I've known Christians that pray for the most trivial things, but we atheists work out our problems on our own or with the help of other humans, because we know there is no super power waiting for us to beg him for help. And, as has already been said, we don't hate god. We just don't see any evidence that there is a god.

I prayed for guidance many times when I was losing my beliefs, but no god even spoke to me or revealed itself to me. I considered that there might be a better, truer religion than the one I was told to believe as a child, but none of them were realistic enough to embrace, even if some of them did have some good moral concepts that seemed to be a good influence on some people. Some of them had some interesting stories and myths. But none of them were convincing enough to be true.

Why do some theists think that atheists hate an entity which doesn't even exist? We do often hate the horrific aspects of some religious propaganda. That's because we see the harm that it has done to people. At the same time, there are some positive things in the Christian philosophy. Unfortunately many Christians only emphasize the idea that they are saved due to their beliefs while ignoring the parts of the gospel that encourage helping others.

Maybe the concept of heaven and hell were simply meant as metaphors for this life. Who knows what the original teachings of the activist Jesus were, as nothing was written down for several decades. Sorry, but it's impossible for me to believe a book that is so confusing and contradictory with so many translations etc. It's just not reasonable.

I also tend to think a lot of religious dogma uses fear and guilt to manipulate people into believing things that aren't based on fact. Or, maybe reality is just too difficult to face for a lot of people. I can understand that, but that does't make religious mythology true.

 

[Atheos]

This really is a bizarre discussion for reasons that have been enumerated many times already. The fact is that nobody has a clue what heaven is like nor hell for that matter. There are tens of thousands of different denominations of Christianity alone and many of them disagree strongly on what these places are like. Some believe that there will in fact be no heaven, the earth will simply be reborn like it was at first with no sin. Some believe in literal worship all the time ("We will shout and sing his praises through the never ending ages...".) Some believe in a community with streets of gold. Some believe there are big mansions for the saintliest and smaller ones for the lay-folk (John's momma asking that her sons get chief spots in Jesus's kingdom). Others believe everyone gets the same reward (parable of the laborers in the vineyard). Some believe it's simply a place of comfort (Abraham's bosom).

What nobody seems to want to address is "What do we do with all this time we suddenly have?" Are there challenges in heaven? Is there sport? Competition? Winners and losers? Do people literally still have to eat anything? If you have to eat is it possible for you to starve to death? Do you have to poop (everything that eats poops). If so, what happens to the poop?

Are there competing factions? If God "rules" what are the rules? What happens if you disobey any of these rules? Why are rules needed? Does (an omnipotent) God need service from anyone? Does he need things to get done and have to order people to get it done for him? Is there drama in heaven? ("What is drama but life with the dull bits cut out?" - Alfred Hitchcock) No drama necessarily implies eternal ennui. Drama implies conflict with winners and losers. Someone has to not like the result or there's no drama.

If there are no challenges, no scarcity of resources that must be obtained, never so much as a broken gate to repair, what the hell do we do with all this time we have available? Praise God all the time? Just how much brown nosing can God take before he's had enough and decides to obliterate the whole lot of it so he's got something interesting to watch again? Why does he even care what we think about him? If this god is so vast that it created this entire universe and brought into existence all the physics upon which it operates it would be about a million times more ridiculous for it to care what I think of it than me caring what an amoeba thinks about me.

Right now there isn't even enough information to be sure of how one even gets into heaven. There are literally hundreds (perhaps thousands) of different answers from Christianity en-masse to the question, "What must I do to be saved?" There is no information to be sure of what unspoken motivations this "God" person has (you know, the one with all those mysterious ways, the one believers are always saying we can't know his mind.) Maybe we're just cattle and the fattest souls (who go to church all the time and sing his praises) are the ones who go to the heavenly abattoir. The rest just get discarded into oblivion (which would be far preferable). We just don't know and we certainly don't have any evidence on which to base a rational decision about this. All we have are the conflicting words of various religious writers making claims about things they cannot demonstrate to be true.

As Rhea rightly points out "heaven" is the ultimate high-pressure-sales-tactic limited time offer. You have to buy it in full before you get to take it for a test drive, and there are no refunds. In my six decades of living I've learned that any time someone tries to pressure me into buying something right now because it's a limited-time offer it's never a good purchase. Never.

So when "we" say we have questions about heaven we're not being assholes or playing games. These are genuine questions that really should be answered before rational people make decisions.

 

[Learner]

Then how could it be bliss?

So heaven is designed for each individual without interaction with the other individuals?

They are each in separate virtual realities?

Heaven is a one fits all... whether or not each individual imagined differently. Like er.. "A nice surprise - there are more varieties of trees in the garden than we could ever have imagined."

Do YOU want to buy a pig in a poke?

For the record, my most deeply held problem with this “heaven” that y’all imgine is that it includes a hell where people are being tortured. And while that makes me

say, “um, no?” what really disturbs me is that actual non-imaginary humans are walking around in my world with hearts that think they can be perfectly happy while

knowing people are being tortured. THAT is the real problem in my heart.

"What theists imagine of Heaven includes a hell".

Hmm.. without asking for ANY defining description for the latter as you did for Heaven... you DO have a concept description.. of what hell means to you.

Oh look. Just as I predicted on page one. When I _do_ offer a description, you just tell me I’m wrong, and we play a little game you’ve cooked up called, “bring me a rock.

No not that rock, bring me a different rock. No not that rock, bring me a different rock.” With a “rollseyes” you show me how wrong I am about your theology.

This is why I asked YOU to describe what YOU were asking about.
How predictable. Go look at your reply to my prediction, where you said, “what? Me? The nice Christian? Whatever do you mean?”

Sure we can look but I don't think we'll notice anything that you've quoted of mine, matching your "oh look" description. You understand the concept of hell it seemed, and yet you didn't understand the concept of heaven...cue rolling eyes.

Strange that when posts talk about there being only two (or three options) i.e. Heaven OR hell... one place is a nice place, whereas through basic logic understanding, you can derive the concept for the other place, as to not be so nice (and the reverse).

I knew you would do this, and I KNEW that what I heard or read would nbot be what is YOUR personal picture of heaven, so I asked you to describe it, and you can go back an re-read the thread to watch how coy and evasive you have been, asking me to tell you what’s in your head. You were asked about hell several times as well.

And you were evasive again. Now you rolleyes at me for making a guess.

...This is why I thought to leave it earlier because you were faffing about asking for something just short of forensic details, i.e. avoiding. I was sort of doing you a favour, so you needn't give an answer, which seemed to me, you found a little difficultly. (and the crux of the question btw: was about Living under Jesus's rule)

 

[DBT]

Humans, being diverse and often conflicted creatures, may find it hard to follow rules.....unless it suits them.

Nor do rules prevent bad decisions, bad attitude or impulsive behaviour.

 

[Learner]

I don't think you have it right, per what I read of Learner I'd say it is:

1. Buy Jesus' pig in a poke, which may have awful rules (evidently they will like it) like constant worship.
2. You die for real, nothing further. Yes, Infidels go here, but Mormons might get into #1.
3. Spend eternity with the fallen angels and get burned (must be evil to qualify).

Ah, got it.

Imagine some believer who ends up in Heaven only to find out that his whole family isn't there, so he asks Jesus what happened to them.

"

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. As sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it. People usually do.

 

[bilby]

I don't think you have it right, per what I read of Learner I'd say it is:

1. Buy Jesus' pig in a poke, which may have awful rules (evidently they will like it) like constant worship.
2. You die for real, nothing further. Yes, Infidels go here, but Mormons might get into #1.
3. Spend eternity with the fallen angels and get burned (must be evil to qualify).

Ah, got it.

Imagine some believer who ends up in Heaven only to find out that his whole family isn't there, so he asks Jesus what happened to them.

"

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. A sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it.

This reminds me of talking to Brexit enthusiasts. In 2016, they had no idea what it would be like, but were certain that it would be fantastic, superb, brilliant, excellent, the best thing ever.

Now they are responding to bad news with "We survived the Blitz, we can survive this". Not exactly a ringing endorsement (even if we disregard the fact that over 40,000 people didn't survive the Blitz).

Here we have Learner's vision of Heaven - "I can cope with it". Sounds great, sign me up for an eternity of something I can cope with.

 

[Learner]

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. A sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it.

This reminds me of talking to Brexit enthusiasts. In 2016, they had no idea what it would be like, but were certain that it would be fantastic, superb, brilliant, excellent, the best thing ever.

Now they are responding to bad news with "We survived the Blitz, we can survive this". Not exactly a ringing endorsement (even if we disregard the fact that over 40,000 people didn't survive the Blitz).

Here we have Learner's vision of Heaven - "I can cope with it". Sounds great, sign me up for an eternity of something I can cope with.

Most theists imo usually "sign-up" for different reasons, wanting to change their ways or realizing they need Jeus in their lives SO they can cope with life etc.. And not entirely about Heaven (which some posters think and make the arguments for).

Nice to see someone signing-up purely for the above for a change.

 

[bigfield]

I don't think you have it right, per what I read of Learner I'd say it is:

1. Buy Jesus' pig in a poke, which may have awful rules (evidently they will like it) like constant worship.
2. You die for real, nothing further. Yes, Infidels go here, but Mormons might get into #1.
3. Spend eternity with the fallen angels and get burned (must be evil to qualify).

Ah, got it.

Imagine some believer who ends up in Heaven only to find out that his whole family isn't there, so he asks Jesus what happened to them.

"

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. As sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it. People usually do.

I don't know how you cope with the prospect of spending an eternity worshipping a psychopath who straight up annihilates people just because they didn't believe in him.

Do people in Heaven get to choose annihilation if they ever get tired of dealing with Jesus' bullshit?

"You know Jesus, this constant worship is getting tedious, and I don't think I can go another thousand years without having a wank. Any chance you can magic me out of existence?"

 

[Learner]

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. As sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it. People usually do.

I don't know how you cope with the prospect of spending an eternity worshipping a psychopath who straight up annihilates people just because they didn't believe in him.

Do people in Heaven get to choose annihilation if they ever get tired of dealing with Jesus' bullshit?

"You know Jesus, this constant worship is getting tedious, and I don't think I can go another thousand years without having a wank. Any chance you can magic me out of existence?"

Thats the difference then isn't it? I don't agree with your theological representation. As your post portrays.. It's not for you. But cheers, you've answered the OP question.

Going a little more in-depth, everyone is family in heaven. The emphasis on that (the treating each individual as your brother and sister etc.) is throughout the bible. Context relationship.. God & Jesus ARE your kin!

 

[Learner]

No particular order:

And so it's said e.g. so many denominations. Such Differences about what hell is, I'm sure, won't neccessarily affect that much on the whole.

No real confliction among Chrsitians as above. It does seems to me there is some regret, a change of mind, perhaps some realization they may like it after all.

Luke 13:28
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.


(Right I'm really off. Get back to posts tommorrow)

Holy fuck. Believing in a heaven and a hell (and a god) is borderline pathological. If it wasn't so common we'd be putting these people in institutions.

Some theists seem to agree with you (putting into institutions of some type), that this may happen - corroborating with the tribulations part (From what I saw from a siniliar view in a vid).

 

[Rhea]

I don't think you have it right, per what I read of Learner I'd say it is:

1. Buy Jesus' pig in a poke, which may have awful rules (evidently they will like it) like constant worship.
2. You die for real, nothing further. Yes, Infidels go here, but Mormons might get into #1.
3. Spend eternity with the fallen angels and get burned (must be evil to qualify).

Ah, got it.

Imagine some believer who ends up in Heaven only to find out that his whole family isn't there, so he asks Jesus what happened to them.

"

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. As sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it. People usually do.

cope with it = “Joy, bliss, nirvana, no sadness”
I am learning so much new vocabulary from this!

Oh. Shit. Wait.

As sad as it is not seeing them

No sadness. TILT !!!

 

[Rhea]

And again I will sum up why atheists cannot just “say yes” to your question.

It doesn’t make any fucking sense.

 

[Jarhyn]

I mean, I get that you and your theology just delight in the idea that you think I made a choice to turn down the offer, I get why you do that. So that you can continue to think it is “loving”. But you have deliberately devised this whole conversation to ask the question

1. ... ...“Are you someone who is comfortable with blind choices”

You have very carefully contrived to NOT ask the question,

2. ... ... “Would you like to live in heaven.”

As much as I have tried and tried to get you to provide information that would allow me to answer question #2, you have carefully and repeatedly made sure that it is question #1 that is on the table.

Then you take my answer to question #1 and say, smugly to yourself and your congregation, “see? She freely said ‘no’ to question #2!” But that is not an honest representation of my answer. I dug and I dug and I dug to make sure I could tell what question you were asking. And it is definitely question #1.

Make sure you are honest in conveying that I answered question #1 ONLY. I have no answer for question #2. There has been no question #2 here.

Honestly, god has made such a cock-up of letting people "speak in his name" that if he's real, I wouldn't trust him to not crack my soul open like a metaphorical egg and eat it.

What guarantee, given the fact that it is more moral to lie and say there is a hell and not really do that, do I get that we aren't just dancing for the walrus and the carpenter? If he lies about hell--and he must to even be a little not-evil --do I get that he isn't just doing the deific equivalent of telling me to step into his opium den so he can drain my bank account until I too end up dumped across the city?

Simply speaking, there is NO reason to accept the existence of hell OR heaven: lose all personal purpose and agency so you can endlessly stroke something's ego that doesn't even need it? That doesn't even make sense as a thing to do, offer, or want!

The plot holes in that religion are immense.

The Good Place has a fantastic discussion on the topic of eternity and the problems created by it's consideration. I'll admit it doesn't consider the god-as-eater-of-souls, that's my own realization/zeitgeist.

Of course this is only a consideration if one accepts that the bible is a dictation rather than an interpretation of a more direct word of God (the universe itself, his "creation", the "spoken word of God"), in which case all I can say is, it was translated very badly.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I await Zondervan's Choose Your Own Adventure TM Bible... customized endowments at their finest. However, one of the narrative options will be that the entire text, Genesis to Revelation, is penned by Satan, after a drunken bet with God, to see how much rampant and contradictory nonsense could be explained away by Christian theology. In leatherette cover, with zipper and bookmark ribbon, words of Jesus (or Satan) in red, red, red.

 

[bilby]

And again I will sum up why atheists cannot just “say yes” to your question.

It doesn’t make any fucking sense.

To be fair, that didn't stop the Poms from saying "yes" to Brexit, nor the Seppos from saying "yes" to a Trump presidency.

People embrace lots of ideas that don't make any fucking sense. There's no global shortage of gullible morons.

 

[bigfield]

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. As sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it. People usually do.

I don't know how you cope with the prospect of spending an eternity worshipping a psychopath who straight up annihilates people just because they didn't believe in him.

Do people in Heaven get to choose annihilation if they ever get tired of dealing with Jesus' bullshit?

"You know Jesus, this constant worship is getting tedious, and I don't think I can go another thousand years without having a wank. Any chance you can magic me out of existence?"

Thats the difference then isn't it? I don't agree with your theological representation. As your post portrays.. It's not for you. But cheers, you've answered the OP question.

Going a little more in-depth, everyone is family in heaven. The emphasis on that (the treating each individual as your brother and sister etc.) is throughout the bible. Context relationship.. God & Jesus ARE your kin!

LOL, "everyone is family in heaven", except, you know, your actual family and friends who aren't there because your new daddy torched them out of existence.

 

[Treedbear]

I see your dilemma. There are a lot of family members of mine that are no longer here now. As sad as it is not seeing them... I can cope with it. People usually do.

I don't know how you cope with the prospect of spending an eternity worshipping a psychopath who straight up annihilates people just because they didn't believe in him.

Do people in Heaven get to choose annihilation if they ever get tired of dealing with Jesus' bullshit?

"You know Jesus, this constant worship is getting tedious, and I don't think I can go another thousand years without having a wank. Any chance you can magic me out of existence?"

...
Going a little more in-depth, everyone is family ...

That's what my old boss used to say. "We're all family here." Having heard stories about his family I knew that wasn't going to work out particularly well. The simple message is that loyalty is all that matters even at the need to sacrifice your own personal integrity.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Sort of like Spahn Ranch in 1968-69, AKA Trial Run for Heaven; run by divine dispensation, complete with murder and sexual arrangements assigned from on high.

 

[bigfield]

...
Going a little more in-depth, everyone is family ...

That's what my old boss used to say. "We're all family here." Having heard stories about his family I knew that wasn't going to work out particularly well. The simple message is that loyalty is all that matters even at the need to sacrifice your own personal integrity.

Yahweh tells Abraham to sacrifice his own son but then stops him at the last second, like some fucked up hidden camera prank show, just to test the loyalty of a follower.

 

[ideologyhunter]

My dad did that to me when I was seven, but it ended a little better. I shot him.