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NFL team owner Robert Kraft was swept up in a bust of a sex-trafficking day spa

They are evidence of trafficking. They are also evidence that the women were not there voluntarily
As usual, you are wrong. Sensationalized media reporting != evidence. The prosecutor admitted there was no actual evidence of anything other than regular prostitution.
Just like with my PU example, if they do not uncover any evidence of child abuse, just adult gay sex, PU laughing dog should not keep claiming sex abuse took place just because initial media reports suggested it was.
 
And yet again the prohibitionists use their rubber definition of "trafficking" to wiggle out of any piece of evidence not supporting their views. If your definition of "trafficking" does not include seizing passports or preventing somebody to leave, then what good is it?
Huh?
The prosecutor was quite clear in his statement. He likened it to police stopping somebody whom they suspect of having drugs and finding nothing. Do you really believe that the prosecutor would not have mentioned evidence of imprisonment if there was any evidence of such a thing? Be realistic for once!
Realism means being accurate. The prosecutor did not say what you originally claimed. You are free to form an opinion or belief based on what was actually said, but no one should necessarily accept your conclusions/ belief that is being realistic.
 
The prosecutor did not admit that. Strike one
He did. Foul!

Of course it makes perfect sense. There are two issue: trafficking and rape. If the women could not leave when they wanted to and were forced to engage in sex acts against their will, they were raped regardless whether they were trafficked or not. Strike Two
How do you even define trafficking? You must use the "moved somewhere and engaged in sex work even if consensually"? First of all, that definition is nonsensical. Second, we know the prosecutor could not have used that definition because nobody disputes these women are Chinese immigrants. So the definition of trafficking that includes forcing women to engage in sex acts against their will is the one he used. And he said there was no evidence of that. Yellow card, you are cautioned.

If you agree your responses are irrelevant, why do you persist? Strike Three - you're out.
It is your responses which are irrelevant. Especially since the prosecutor likened the case to when police search a car and find nothing. Would he have used that analogy if there was evidence of rape? Most certainly not!

Red card - you are out!

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I see you are easily confused, old-timer.
Realism means being accurate.
Yes. You should try it for a change.
The prosecutor did not say what you originally claimed.
He did, and I have explained why.
 
I.e. you presume guilt because of your prejudices about sex work.

Nope. You can make all the false statements about me that you wish but everyone knows that you are making those assertions because I disagree with you.

Just because something might be difficult to prove does not mean you should presume it happened in absence of evidence for it.

I'm not. I'm basing my opinion on initial reports by law enforcement based upon what they found, not on the political decisions of a DA.

Al Capone is an interesting example, in that he was a product of the same attitude (prohibition) you have toward sex work.
Sex work is not called the world's oldest profession for no reason. It is deeply ingrained in human nature. Which is why sex work exists in some form in all societies, even quite repressive ones like Saudi Arabia or Sweden. Trying to root it out only leads to misery for many people.

It's really interesting that you feel that Sweden is quite repressive. It's widely regarded as being extremely liberal and progressive. Just because you don't agree with a stance doesn't make it the wrong stance to take or repressive. I find prostitution to be quite repressive and oppressive. Legalization does not mitigate, much less eliminate forced prostitution. Apparently the 'free market' does not eliminate the ills that are commonly associated with prostitution, including the lack of freedom often associated with the practice.

And how do you define "trafficking"? Be specific.

I'll go with Homeland security's definition: Human trafficking is modern-day slavery and involves the use of force, fraud, or coercion to obtain some type of labor or commercial sex act.

Because the supposedly "anti-trafficking" (really anti-sex work) groups (which you love to use for your questionable stats) define it such that any woman who moves (especially internationally) and engages in sex work, even if perfectly consensually, is counted as "trafficking victim". So is your solution not to fuck anybody with an accent?

You should not make up shit because you don't like my opinion. It doesn't make you more right and it does make you look less open minded and less intelligent.

I do believe that it is unwise to fuck people you don't actually know well enough to know that they are actually a willing participant. Regardless of whether money changes hands. For one thing, it opens the door to all kinds of valid criminal complaints.

If that's too difficult: to actually be able to ascertain whether the person you intend to have sex with is willing (and legally able to give consent) to have sex with you, you should not be having sex.

These are not women who responded to some ad on some employment site or news paper. They were brought in specifically do perform the exact services they were performing--and held there, without their passports in their possession, unable to leave the premises without being accompanied by a member designated by management, moved about to various locations at the owner's whims.
The prosecutor admitted that there is no evidence of the claims initially made by the sheriff. Kindly stop pretending that those are facts.

I believe the sheriff rather than someone whose job is politically driven.

If any woman is forced to perform sex acts against their will, the person who forces her should be prosecuted fully.

How magnanimous of you!

However, just because a woman is from China does not mean that it is so. I know a Chinese woman who owns her own Asian massage parlor. And yes, I can testify that she does offer "extras", and is quite good at them ;). Is she trafficking herself?

How do you know that she owns her own massage parlor?

The owners know who they are 'hiring' and from whom and under what circumstances. That's what their business model is based upon.
The owners do know, but you certainly do not.

Nor do you because that's not what you care about, is it?
 
Rev. Lovejoy's wife in The Simpsons. I'm not exactly certain the connection between the two of you. I don't recall Helen Lovejoy having too large of a presence.
The connection is being a moralizing busybody. As in "won't somebody please think of the children". I mentioned her name to go with thebeave's picture of Chief Wiggum, of course. :)
 
No, we can claim human trafficking if we get situations like this one with a bunch of women who are victims of human trafficking. We're not courts.

latest

Yep, that's you alright.
 
Ah, I get it. (Some) People think I'm opposed to sex trafficking because I'm religious and hate sex.
- while I do not think you are conventionally religious, your radical feminism is a sort of ersatz-religion.
- I do not think you hate all sex. But you think only men who are in sexual relationships or are good looking/charming enough to pick up women at bars should be allowed by the government to have sex.
 
Women with opinions are trouble makers. ;)
It's not about her being a woman. Toni and laughing dog are both very wrong on this issue. Their wrongness is invariant based on their genitalia.

By the way, here is an excellent article about the case.
Why Bob Kraft’s ordeal should alarm us all

NY Post said:
Many are enjoying the whole debacle. Kraft is a very rich man. He’s a friend of President Trump. Who cares if he gets abused by the justice system?
But that’s exactly backward. If this is happening to this rich, prominent man, with access to the best lawyers and p.r., what happens to the rest of us?
And Toni and laughing dog: just because you might not be target of a moral panic like this one today, that is no guarantee you will not be on receiving end of one tomorrow.

Beside many other things wrong with this case, I have yet to hear Toni and others say why they think bugging a business and clandestinely recording all customers getting massages is in any way acceptable.
 
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Ah, I get it. (Some) People think I'm opposed to sex trafficking because I'm religious and hate sex.
- while I do not think you are conventionally religious, your radical feminism is a sort of ersatz-religion.
- I do not think you hate all sex. But you think only men who are in sexual relationships or are good looking/charming enough to pick up women at bars should be allowed by the government to have sex.

Nope.

I think that sex is mutual and should be mutually engaged in. Looks/charm have nothing to do with it.

I also think that bars are a lousy place to find someone worth finding. Sure, it can happen but it's not very likely.

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Women with opinions are trouble makers. ;)
It's not about her being a woman. Toni and laughing dog are both very wrong on this issue. Their wrongness is invariant based on their genitalia.

I think that you are wrong on this issue. And it has nothing to do with your genitalia or mine.
 
Nope.
I think that sex is mutual and should be mutually engaged in.
What do you mean by "mutual"? Biological definition of mutualism is an interaction where both species benefit, but they do not have to benefit in the same way (and usually don't). So, if we borrow that concept and apply it to human interactions, sex work would definitely be included among types of mutual sex.
I think the reason why people engage in consensual sex should be up to them, not you or the government.
Whether it's love, good looks or money the other person leaves in an envelope, it's nobody else's business.

Looks/charm have nothing to do with it.
That's very naive. Those things have a lot to do with who gets to have sex, especially for casual sex.
Which is one reason why sex work is so universal among human cultures.

I also think that bars are a lousy place to find someone worth finding. Sure, it can happen but it's not very likely.
And yet many people hook up in bars. Mostly for casual sex, not relationships. But in any case, it should be up to those people why they have sex. Same should go for sex workers and their clients.

I think that you are wrong on this issue.
Ditto. :)

And it has nothing to do with your genitalia or mine.
At last we agree on something!
 
Nope. You can make all the false statements about me that you wish but everyone knows that you are making those assertions because I disagree with you.
Not a false statement.

I'm not. I'm basing my opinion on initial reports by law enforcement based upon what they found, not on the political decisions of a DA.
But initial suspicions are not always born out by evidence. And where do you get the idea that sheriffs are not political? A sheriff is as much an elected official as the DA.
And there is another issue - the very intrusive and legally highly questionable video surveillance inside massage rooms. The warrant was given for human trafficking, not garden variety prostitution. Hence, the sheriff has a vested interest in insisting this is human trafficking no matter what the evidence shows. The prosecutor, however, is more independent of the investigations and thus more likely to be objective here.

It's really interesting that you feel that Sweden is quite repressive.
It was partly tongue in cheek. Overall they are not, but on the issue of sex work, they most certainly are. And yet it still happens. I should have used Iceland instead maybe as they are even worse - they even banned strip clubs!

It's widely regarded as being extremely liberal and progressive.
American version of "liberal", but restricting the freedoms of sex workers and their clients is hardly "liberal" in the true sense of the word.

Just because you don't agree with a stance doesn't make it the wrong stance to take or repressive.
If it represses people (and it does), it is a repressive stance.

I find prostitution to be quite repressive and oppressive.
Why? As long as it is consensual sex work, it is repressive and oppressive to tell people what to do with their bodies. It is also oppressive to condemn certain people (me included) to sexlessness.

Legalization does not mitigate, much less eliminate forced prostitution. Apparently the 'free market' does not eliminate the ills that are commonly associated with prostitution, including the lack of freedom often associated with the practice.
You love to claim that, but have never actually shown it to be true. The numbers you cited are by groups that use the bogus "trafficking = moving for sex work, even if consensually" definition, which will obviously yield high numbers when you legalize sex work.

I'll go with Homeland security's definition: Human trafficking is modern-day slavery and involves the use of force, fraud, or coercion to obtain some type of labor or commercial sex act.
But it is not the definition anti-trafficking groups use. You can't use their numbers and then pretend their numbers apply to trafficking under this definition.
Also, I would be wary of the word "coercion". It is kind of vague and has been abused by radfems before. Like when Ms. Magazine listed breaking up with a girlfriend who won't have sex with you as "coercing" her. Surely anybody, man or woman, is free to end a sexually unsatisfying relationship!

You should not make up shit because you don't like my opinion. It doesn't make you more right and it does make you look less open minded and less intelligent.
I am not making that up. For example, Marriott hotels have "anti-trafficking" policy where they observe their (female, travelling alone) patrons for signs that they may be engaging in sex work and treat any instance of it as "trafficking". No force, fraud or coercion required. This is conflation of all sex work with trafficking, pure and simple.

I do believe that it is unwise to fuck people you don't actually know well enough to know that they are actually a willing participant. Regardless of whether money changes hands. For one thing, it opens the door to all kinds of valid criminal complaints.
You mean invalid criminal complaints?
What's your solution? Go back to the age where premarital or casual sex are frowned upon?
I disagree with you. I am an actual liberal, in that I support freedom of individuals.

If that's too difficult: to actually be able to ascertain whether the person you intend to have sex with is willing (and legally able to give consent) to have sex with you, you should not be having sex.
And what does that mean in practice? Who should be presumed to be unwilling? All sex workers, according to you. But who else? Any woman who had anyhing to drink? Anybody you've known less than a month?

I believe the sheriff rather than someone whose job is politically driven.
The sheriff is also an elected official. And he is also closely linked to the sting, and has vested interest in yielding some convictions, especially given the nature of the highly intrusive surveillance.
By the way, what do you think of that surveillance? Are you all right with it because it targets sex work?

How magnanimous of you!
Not magnanimous at all. Just reality. If you force somebody into labor, sexual or otherwise, you are a vile piece of shit and you should go to prison.
But being a sex worker and hiring a sex worker should be perfectly legal in a free society.

How do you know that she owns her own massage parlor?
How do we know anything? In this case, I've known her for years and we talked. \
You must think she must be forced into it because you can't abide the idea that some woman would have paid sex of her own free will. That work is not for everybody, for sure, but those who want to do it should not have nanny-state prohibit them.


Nor do you because that's not what you care about, is it?

Wrong. I care far more about sex workers than you do about men who, for whatever reason, seek out this kind of companionship.
 
They are evidence of trafficking. They are also evidence that the women were not there voluntarily
As usual, you are wrong.
It is evidence of possible trafficking.
Sensationalized media reporting != evidence. The prosecutor admitted there was no actual evidence of anything other than regular prostitution.
No, the prosecutor did not.
Just like with my PU example, if they do not uncover any evidence of child abuse, just adult gay sex, PU laughing dog should not keep claiming sex abuse took place just because initial media reports suggested it was.
WTF are you babbling about?

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And Toni and laughing dog: just because you might not be target of a moral panic like this one today, that is no guarantee you will not be on receiving end of one tomorrow.
WTF are you babbling about now?
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Beside many other things wrong with this case, I have yet to hear Toni and others say why they think bugging a business and clandestinely recording all customers getting massages is in any way acceptable.
It is called police work - bugging establishments that are suspected of criminal activity is established police procedure.
 
It is your responses which are irrelevant. Especially since the prosecutor likened the case to when police search a car and find nothing. Would he have used that analogy if there was evidence of rape? Most certainly not!
You are not a mind reader. Please stop confusing your conjectures with fact.
 
I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't think that her mugshot should have been released to anyone other than police agencies - especially given the high profile of the case and/or she was coerced to be there.

Fucking gross and inhumane. I am not trying to go full Swedish model concerning prostitution, but doing shit like this will lead to that on the return pendulum swing.

Only her rough age, sex, and possibly nation of origin and immigration status if related to coercion should have been released to the public.

However, if her photo was released when this case was extremely fresh, maybe Kraft would have stepped down - a sassy, young and willing high priced call girl she was not. Tough life.
 
It is evidence of possible trafficking.
But not evidence of actual trafficking.
No, the prosecutor did not.
Oh, yes, he did. Read his statement again, and dispense with this automatic gainsaying that you love to do.
WTF are you babbling about?
It's from another post I wrote in this thread yesterday. A "parallel universe" thought experiment where the sheriff's department targeted gay people having sex in Jupiter, and not hand-job giving masseuses and their customers.

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WTF are you babbling about now?
You really have a hard time following along, do you?
It's in the reference to the article I posted "Why Bob Kraft’s ordeal should alarm us all". It's about highly questionable surveillance tactics (videoing massage rooms) and how such intrusive policing can at a later time affect somebody like you and Toni as well. After all, irrational moral panics can affect us all.

It is called police work - bugging establishments that are suspected of criminal activity is established police procedure.
Used to be a time when self-identified "liberals" and "progressives" were against police overreach/abuse of powers and in favor of the Fourth Amendment. I miss that time. Just like I miss the time when self-identified "liberals" and "progressives" were in favor of free speech and the First Amendment.

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You are not a mind reader.
I do not need to be one. The prosecutor was quite clear and explicit.

Please stop confusing your conjectures with fact.
I am not, but you should follow your own advice.
 
I don't know about anyone else here, but I don't think that her mugshot should have been released to anyone other than police agencies - especially given the high profile of the case
So far we are in agreement.

and/or she was coerced to be there.
Except that there is no evidence that they were. And the fact that Uncle LEOs arrested them shows that, at least for these two, not even the sheriff's department believes they are any kind of "victim".
Now, I do not think sex workers should be arrested. Neither should their customers. There is no legitimate reason to criminalize consensual sex work!

Fucking gross and inhumane. I am not trying to go full Swedish model concerning prostitution, but doing shit like this will lead to that on the return pendulum swing.
Swedish model is sexist against both men and women. It treats all men buying sex as criminals and all women selling sex as victims, no matter the facts or circumstances.
That said, if sex work is to be outlawed, the only logical position is that both selling and buying is outlawed. It is fundamentally illogical to say that selling sex is not a crime but buying sex is.

However, if her photo was released when this case was extremely fresh, maybe Kraft would have stepped down - a sassy, young and willing high priced call girl she was not. Tough life.

Young and good looking they (there were two women on two occasions) may not be, but there is no evidence they were not willing.
 
It's in the reference to the article I posted "Why Bob Kraft’s ordeal should alarm us all". It's about highly questionable surveillance tactics (videoing massage rooms) and how such intrusive policing can at a later time affect somebody like you and Toni as well. After all, irrational moral panics can affect us all.

What's questionable about it?

Law enforcement suspects illegal activity is happening in an establishment so they start surveillance. Done daily by LEOs all across the US.
 
What's questionable about it?
Law enforcement suspects illegal activity is happening in an establishment so they start surveillance. Done daily by LEOs all across the US.

What is "done daily" is audio surveillance. Not full-video surveillance of places where people tend to be naked. There is still the 4th amendment, even if both Left and Right love to ignore way too often. :rolleyes:
Also, surveillance warrant was approved on the basis of the claim that there was "human trafficking" afoot. Since no evidence of that was found, this intrusive invasion of privacy should not be allowed to be used to prosecute much less serious "crimes"*, i.e. solicitation, prostitution, that are the only "crimes" being prosecuted.

It's amazing how self-identified "liberals" (really illberals) and "progressives" (really regressives) like you, Toni and laughing dog become über-authoritarian and very trusting toward claims by LEOs ("the sheriff said it in a press conference, I believe it, that settles it") when it comes to them persecuting sex work. Why is that?

* use of scare quotes is because laws criminalizing sex work are blatantly unconstitutional given precedent of Griswold, Roe and Lawrence.

P.S.: To revisit my "parallel universe" thought experiment. Would you be as supportive of the sheriff's department tactics if (in a parallel universe without Lawrence where gay sex is still criminalized in Florida) they clandestinely recorded gay men having sex and, finding no other wrongdoing, used these recordings to prosecute these men for having gay sex?
 
They video’d an illegal brothel where there wasn’t supposed to be nudity.

Sounds like someone is getting nervous.
 
They video’d an illegal brothel where there wasn’t supposed to be nudity.
People are usually nude when they get a massage. Under a sheet, for sure, but they disrobe in the room. And sheriff's department was watching. But all is good, because you regressive, illiberal left-wing authoritarians do not think there should be any limits on police power in order to stamp out sex work ...

Sounds like someone is getting nervous.
Which is not an argument why what Florida is doing is in any way acceptable. Again, would you support intrusive government surveillance to stamp out things like gay sex before Lawrence? Gay sex was against the law once too, you know.
 
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