Disaster for Ukraine. Rebels route Ukrainian forces at Donetsk

[Togo]

There's Russian proverb that goes something like this: if you can't face the wolf don't go into the forest" The West has blundered into the Ukrainian forest and enraged the Russian wolf only to discover that we cannot face him. We should now be looking for the path out. Russia fears a predatory Nato expansion into Ukraine. They fear what will be next, Russia itself?

But it is Russia that is pushing Ukraine to the west!!

I think it's actually Poland.

Then there also promise that if Germany were united, the US would agree not to expand NATO "even one inch" into former Warsaw Pact countries.

Putin trying to reconquer former USSR colonies shows clearly that NATO should have been even more receptive toward allowing them into the NATO fold. Not that this is merely Obama's failing. Bush didn't do anything when Russian tanks rolled into Georgia either.

That's a lie.

How so? Crimea has, in point of fact, been annexed by Russia. That is an expansion by Russia westwards.

[

Now we have admitted virtually all of them and even admitted former Soviet Republics like Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Ukraine and Georgia have been in our cross-hairs for quite some time, but I don't understand why we are wasting our time. Putin will never allow it.

It's not Putin's right to allow it or not. They are sovereign counties that have the right to chose international organizations, alliances and treaties they want to join. That Russia is acting aggressively toward former colonies that make decision not in Moscow's interest proves the necessity of those countries seeking NATO protection.

It's not US right to make coups and install puppet and fascist regimes.

That doesn't answer Harry's question. Can you explain why independent countries are not allowed to make alliances that Russia does not approve of?

When are you going to put in your head that Crimea left Ukraine under their free will?

Based on what? A snap referendum held by Russian soldiers with guns?

American public is being fed lies.
I know this because I watch Colbert Report and when russian born girl comes and starts talking about that recording of the separatists talking about shot down Malaysian plane and I know she is lying, cause you know, I speak russian and heard that tape too. So yes, you are being fed lies

I wouldn't know, I don't watch US media. I know you're trying your best to feed us a biased account of the conflict, but I don't understand why.

 

[barbos]

Then there also promise that if Germany were united, the US would agree not to expand NATO "even one inch" into former Warsaw Pact countries.

Putin trying to reconquer former USSR colonies shows clearly that NATO should have been even more receptive toward allowing them into the NATO fold. Not that this is merely Obama's failing. Bush didn't do anything when Russian tanks rolled into Georgia either.

That's a lie.

How so? Crimea has, in point of fact, been annexed by Russia. That is an expansion by Russia westwards.

Hardly an expansion. And once again, If it ever was annexed then it is by Ukraine during USSR dissolution.

[

Now we have admitted virtually all of them and even admitted former Soviet Republics like Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Ukraine and Georgia have been in our cross-hairs for quite some time, but I don't understand why we are wasting our time. Putin will never allow it.

It's not Putin's right to allow it or not. They are sovereign counties that have the right to chose international organizations, alliances and treaties they want to join. That Russia is acting aggressively toward former colonies that make decision not in Moscow's interest proves the necessity of those countries seeking NATO protection.

It's not US right to make coups and install puppet and fascist regimes.

That doesn't answer Harry's question. Can you explain why independent countries are not allowed to make alliances that Russia does not approve of?

But Ukraine is not independent, they are completely dependent on US.
US installed current president and government. Russia did not threaten to Ukraine when Yanukovich decided to go to EU.

When are you going to put in your head that Crimea left Ukraine under their free will?

Based on what? A snap referendum held by Russian soldiers with guns?

No, based on referendum. Fact is, US and EU politicians damn well know that referendum has shown real will of the people. Otherwise they would not appeal to illegality of it, which by the way is a lie too, Crimea is an autonomous province and it was their right to conduct that referendum. And if anything was illegal it is the fact that they were robbed of that referendum 20 years ago.

American public is being fed lies.
I know this because I watch Colbert Report and when russian born girl comes and starts talking about that recording of the separatists talking about shot down Malaysian plane and I know she is lying, cause you know, I speak russian and heard that tape too. So yes, you are being fed lies

I wouldn't know, I don't watch US media. I know you're trying your best to feed us a biased account of the conflict, but I don't understand why.

It's not me it's you!
US media flat out lies. That fucking cunt comes out and fucking lies

 

[4321lynx]

The media on both sides are lying. We have "peace" which as Bismarck once said is "war by other means." And in war everybody lies.

What Obama, the EU, Putin, and everybody else know is that the US will never go to war over the Ukraine, unless Putin wants to take it all that is, and there is no strategic reason for him to do that.
As far as Crimea is concerned Putin did say, "I would rather the NATO military came on courtesy visits to us in Sebastopol than that we would have to visit them in Sebastopol".
I wish everybody here would forget right and wrong, as far as the US and Russia are concerned there is only might IS right. It was called Realpolitik by the Germans when they had the might.

 

[barbos]

The media on both sides are lying.

Yes, but western media lies way more, and I expected to them lie less being "free" and all that.
Disgusting.

 

[thief of fire]

American public is being fed lies.
I know this because I watch Colbert Report and when russian born girl comes and starts talking about that recording of the separatists talking about shot down Malaysian plane and I know she is lying, cause you know, I speak russian and heard that tape too. So yes, you are being fed lies

Most Americans don't care.
If Russia was responsible for the downing of the Malaysian plane then the Americans would release their satellite imagery

 

[thief of fire]

But Ukraine is not independent, they are completely dependent on US.
US installed current president and government. Russia did not threaten to Ukraine when Yanukovich decided to go to EU.

Barbos, you are correct, but you can't expect people to believe something they don't want to believe.
The referendum in Crimea won't be accepted because the result was "wrong." The reverse applies to the post coup leaders in Kiev. Those changes are perfectly fine, no matter how they came about.

 

[angelo]

I read in this mornings daily newspaper that Russian troops have withdrawn from Eastern Ukraine. Not sure how much credibility is in that report.

 

[Jayjay]

I read in this mornings daily newspaper that Russian troops have withdrawn from Eastern Ukraine. Not sure how much credibility is in that report.

Would that be the Russian troops that were vacationing, the Russian troops that stumbled over the border by accident, or the Russian troops that were never there in the first place?

 

[arkirk]

Ukraine had a recent coups. The whole country elected a leader who was going to deal with Russia and eschew NATO. Some people from the outside sponsored a COUPS and threw out the elected leader and his cabinet. They made a mistake because Putin is an experienced brinksman. It is my understanding that Ukraine has an unpaid gas bill the coups people wanted to ignore. Putin is an ordinary ass hole politician...so is our esteemed leader. Both of these men...Putin and Obomber are playing games with the lives of Ukrainians.

The coups gave Putin his excuse. Putin gives Obomber his excuse and they just rattle on, meanwhile more Ukranians have died than died in the recent Israeli attack on Gaza. I think Putin will probably win this round. We need adult leadership in both countries. The problem is structural with both countries being dominated by their fossil energy and military sectors. The politics just follow where that configuration takes them. There is no humanism in either man...just a couple of political reptiles staring each other down. It is unfortunate these politicians have such low regard for their own humanity.

 

[Jayjay]

A new Russian "aid" convoy has crossed the border:

MOSCOW, September 12 (RIA Novosti) – The first 35 vehicles from the Russian humanitarian aid convoy have been cleared by the Russian customs at the Donetsk checkpoint and are headed for Ukraine, a representative from Russia's Southern Customs Department told RIA Novosti Friday.

"Russian customs and border control officers have finished registering the first group of trucks," spokesman for Russia's Southern Customs Directorate Rayan Farukshin said.

"All 35 vehicles have left the checkpoint and are headed for Ukraine," Farukshin said.

In addition to 33 trucks carrying humanitarian cargo, the officers cleared 2 technical vehicles.

Earlier on Friday the self-proclaimed Luhansk People's Republic (LPR) said that Moscow had formally notified it about the arrival of the second Russian humanitarian aid convoy Saturday.

Last time Russian aid was immediately followed by a push from the separatists and turned the tide of the war. I have no doubt that this new aid convoy will likewise indicate a Russian push to take Mariupol and whatever else territory they can. The new EU and US sanctions came into effect yesterday, so Russia really has no reason to delay... this was a mistake from EU, they should have put the sanctions on hold as long as the ceasefire holds. Now Ukraine will just lose some more land.

 

[boneyard bill]

Derec writes:

Nobody said anything about threatening them with nuclear weapons, just conventional ones. Countries are not permitted to attack and invade other sovereign countries either and yet here we are with Russia doing just that. So why should we care about technicalities concerning the Black Sea?
They will not be deterred except by a show of and a threat of force. The world is making the same mistake in thinking that an expansionist megalomaniac can be satisfied with only a little bit of conquest.

Except that everything you are saying here is complete fantasy which you probably picked up from the lapdog media. What country has Putin invaded? None. He had treaty right to have troops in Crimea and he has not sent any troops into Ukraine as even Poroshenko recently admitted.

Meanwhile, we do not control access to the Black Sea. Turkey does, and it is doubtful that she would allow us to violate the treaty since her commitment to NATO is merely a formal one and anyway, I doubt that she wants us to start WW III.

The simple fact is that the Ukrainian forces got their asses kicked big time, and they were kicked by the Separate forces with some help from Russian volunteers and from other European countries, especially Spain where many people look on the Ukrainian situation as a fight against fascism akin to their own Civil War.

But the major contributor to the defeat were the Ukrainians themselves who were poorly motivated, poorly trained, poorly supplied, and poorly led.

The US is on thin ground when it comes to treaty commitments remember that we promised Serbia at the end of the Kosovo War that Kosovo would never be given independence and would remain as an autonomous part of Serbian. A few years later, we were demanding a promoting independence for Kosovo.

That was a mistake, I agree.

And Putin is pointing out that Crimea's secession from Ukraine was conducted EXACTLY according to the principles set down by the Kosovo independence. So we don't have a leg to stand on regarding that situation. US troops were also occupying the country as a treaty right when the referendum was held.

Then there also promise that if Germany were united, the US would agree not to expand NATO "even one inch" into former Warsaw Pact countries.

Putin trying to reconquer former USSR colonies shows clearly that NATO should have been even more receptive toward allowing them into the NATO fold. Not that this is merely Obama's failing. Bush didn't do anything when Russian tanks rolled into Georgia either.

Russian troops were attacked by Georgia! What the hell do you think Putin was going to do? Russian peace-keepers had been accepted in South Ossetia as a trip-wire to guarantee that Georgia would not attack its Russian-speaking province as settlement of a previous dispute there. The Georgian army killed the peace-keepers! Putin attacked Georgia and could have had it all if he wanted to. His forces occupied Tbilisi, but Putin didn't stay. He didn't even put a puppet regime in Georgia. The current Georgian government is anti-Russian. Bush didn't do anything because he didn't want to start WW III. Quit listening to the lapdog media. Or, if you insist on listening, believe the opposite of what they say.

Now we have admitted virtually all of them and even admitted former Soviet Republics like Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Ukraine and Georgia have been in our cross-hairs for quite some time, but I don't understand why we are wasting our time. Putin will never allow it.

It's not Putin's right to allow it or not. They are sovereign counties that have the right to chose international organizations, alliances and treaties they want to join. That Russia is acting aggressively toward former colonies that make decision not in Moscow's interest proves the necessity of those countries seeking NATO protection.

Putin will act in Russia's interest regardless of legal technicalities just as we did when Krushchev tried to put missiles in Cuba. Our "quaranteen" was actually a blockade which is an act of war. I don't deny that Putin will act in Russia's interests. What I have denied is that he has any interest in restoring the USSR. That is a complete fairy tale and is unsupported by any evidence. If he wanted to re-build the USSR, he would have been in Kiev along time ago. We said early on that we would not use force in dealing with the current Ukrainian crisis

.

 

[angelo]

It's not Putin's right to allow it or not. They are sovereign counties that have the right to chose international organizations, alliances and treaties they want to join. That Russia is acting aggressively toward former colonies that make decision not in Moscow's interest proves the necessity of those countries seeking NATO protection.

What about the Nato encroachment of Russia? That's not to mention the sizeable number of Russian speaking people who prefer to be Russians.

 

[barbos]

boneyard bill, find "Split Quotes" button and start using it.

And south Ossetia is not russian speaking province. I mean they speak russian too, but they are not russinas, they are ossetians and they have their own ossetian language.
And yes, Saakashvili attacked South Ossetia, despite widely held belief in the West that it was other way around. Saakashvili choose a moment when Medvedev was a president and Putin was in China attending Olympic games. He planned that Medvedev (few month old president) will screw response up.
This incident and West blind support of clearly criminal act on the part of Georgia may have contributed to Putin's decision to definitely get back into president's chair in 2012.
Sufficient to say that Putin has lost any trust in NATO and US after that war.

 

[angelo]

Putin trusts the West just as much as the West trusts Putin. Since 1940 Russians have a fear of been encroached again.

 

[Jayjay]

It's not Putin's right to allow it or not. They are sovereign counties that have the right to chose international organizations, alliances and treaties they want to join. That Russia is acting aggressively toward former colonies that make decision not in Moscow's interest proves the necessity of those countries seeking NATO protection.

What about the Nato encroachment of Russia? That's not to mention the sizeable number of Russian speaking people who prefer to be Russians.

What part of Russia was "enroached" by Nato?

 

[barbos]

What about the Nato encroachment of Russia? That's not to mention the sizeable number of Russian speaking people who prefer to be Russians.

What part of Russia was "enroached" by Nato?

Western part
I suspect you are of opinion that countries can do whatever they want on their territory but this is not the case. Even during Cold War there were agreements to limit forces, and they are still in place.
When Poland was too enthusiastic about missile defense Russia said well we are placing short range missiles in Kalinigrad, what it means is that there were no missiles there yet.
Same with NATO membership, in theory anybody has right but Russia has right to react to it too, and depending to severity of the "encroachment" reaction can be different.

Whether it's fair or not but Russia has put way more money into Ukraine than US or even Europe.
And when Eurocrats decided to make a coup Russia reacted (within rules) to protect its interests.

 

[barbos]

And more about EU and former Soviet Union republics.
Ukraine is not EU material and will not be one any time soon.
Even Baltic states were not good EU material and joining EU caused them some not so unexpected demographic problems.
They've got serious immigration (to EU) problem, young people simply go to EU countries for better life.
Now combine it with large number of russian citizens and non-citizens and you are in danger of becoming russificated.
Also, their economies are still very dependent on Russia, piss off Russia and their economy goes down a little, more young people go to EU and economy goes down more.

 

[dystopian]

Even Baltic states were not good EU material and joining EU caused them some not so unexpected demographic problems.
They've got serious immigration (to EU) problem, young people simply go to EU countries for better life.

Except the Baltic states have enjoyed tremendous economic growth since joining the EU. In 2000, before joining the EU: GDP per capita was 9,909 dollars for Estonia, 7,618 for Latvia, and 8,414 for Lithuania. In 2013, GDP per capita had risen to 22,731 dollars for Estonia, 19,385 for Latvia, and 22,788 for Lithuania. So if they're have serious demographic issues, it's not showing up in their economy; which has seen almost nothing but growth (except for 2008-2009, due to the global crisis); Estonia's growth and development is nothing short of amazing, and it is projected that by 2025, it's GDP per capita will be on par with the Scandinavian countries.

Of course, if we look at the actual statistics instead of just listening to more of your propaganda, we find that joining the EU has NOT given them a demographic problem. For instance in Estonia, while it is true that between 2000 and 2009, there was a greater number of emigrants versus immigrants, this number was far lower than it was in the 1990's. And in fact, the main groups of immigrants from Estonia are ethnic Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. The situation is similar in both Latvia and Lithuania. It is obvious that the emigration issues these countries have is not a result of joining the EU, but rather a result of the financial crisis; and that even so, the situation is far better than it was before these countries joined the EU. These countries have more than doubled their GDP per capita in just over a decade, which is nothing to cry about. As the baltic states continue to become more developed in line with the rest of Europe, emigration will continue to decrease.

Why do you even try to spout this kind of anti EU propaganda when people can so easily look up the statistics on wikipedia or anywhere else?

Now combine it with large number of russian citizens and non-citizens and you are in danger of becoming russificated.

Except that the share of Ethnic Russians compared to the share of ethnic natives has gone down. Quite dramatically.

Also, their economies are still very dependent on Russia, piss off Russia and their economy goes down a little.

Except that not all are really that dependent on Russia at all. Estonia's main export partner is not Russia, but rather Sweden and Finland (16.8% and 15.3% respectively, versus 12.7% for Russia). Only 4.1% of imports are Russian.

 

[barbos]

Baltic states economic growth is a function of economic growth in Russia.
Their growth is basically due to transit and food to Russia.
And demography is not good, they experienced 30% drop in number of young people.
All I am saying is that they were not EU material, maybe better material than Greece but still not good. And Ukraine is even bigger joke than Russia. I mean Russia should get to EU first.

The rest of your bullshit I am not going to comment.
Actually I would like to comment that:

Except that the share of Ethnic Russians compared to the share of ethnic natives has gone down. Quite dramatically.

And how exactly they achieved that? murdering them?

 

[Sabine Grant]

By Barbos :The rest of your bullshit I am not going to comment.

Do you think you are gaining any credibility by not addressing what was duly documented while labeling it as "bullshit"? Why do you not provide counter documentation (rather than your mere opinions) to justify your labeling?