My Hope is that Scotland will vote for Independence

[maxparrish]

After giving it some thought, I hope the Scots approve independence.

Mind you, I have always had a great admiration for the Scots, in part because of the many contributions of the Scottish enlightenment as well as their accomplishments in North America. Unfortunately in the UK they have degenerated into a supplicant population, dependent on upon large tax subsidies from the remainder of the UK. And like many welfare dependent sub-cultures they suffer from the paradox of believing that is their lack of accomplishment stems from not sucking an even greater dole from 'the other', the producers in the UK who support the Scottish free-loaders.

The region receives a net £2000 to £3000 per person yearly subsidy, and if there is independence Scotland will only get a share of North Sea Oil revenue from production (which is falling). The Scots will be booted out of their indulgent parents house, and be given some tough love - they will not be moaching any longer. So if the laborite North wishes to increase the size of their welfare state (which they claim they do) they will have to dig very deep into the pockets of fellow Scots. I can't think of anything more appropriate than for a foolish people to experience the blessings and cost of it's greater leftist aspirations from its own wallet - it will be one of the few examples where the makers can flee the bondage of the takers and, leave them to stew their own social philosophy.

Still, if the experience of the split between Slovakia and the Czech Republic is instructive, then the longer term Scottish future it might be bright. Slovakia was a carping, business unfriendly sponge in their union with the Czech's. After their separation the Slovaks had a very rude economic awakening. They learned to be to appreciate business and the market, to become makers. As such BOTH countries are now prospering.

The Scots deserve a shot at experiencing their own left wing delusions. In the end, the UK and Scotland could both end up the better for it.

 

[EricK]

I hope so too. Without Scotland, the UK life expectancy will go up, and the average annual rainfall will go down. Sounds like a good deal.

 

[arkirk]

After giving it some thought, I hope the Scots approve independence.

Mind you, I have always had a great admiration for the Scots, in part because of the many contributions of the Scottish enlightenment as well as their accomplishments in North America. Unfortunately in the UK they have degenerated into a supplicant population, dependent on upon large tax subsidies from the remainder of the UK. And like many welfare dependent sub-cultures they suffer from the paradox of believing that is their lack of accomplishment stems for not sucking an even greater dole from 'the other', the producers in the UK who support the free-loaders.

The region receives a net £2000 to £3000 per person yearly subsidy, and if there is independence Scotland will only get a share of North Sea Oil revenue from production (which is falling). The Scots will be booted out of their indulgent parents house, and be given some tough love - they will not be moaching any longer. So if the laborite North wishes to increase the size of their welfare state (which they claim they do) they will have to dig very deep into the pockets of fellow Scots. I can't think of anything more appropriate than for a foolish people to experience the blessings and cost of it's greater leftist aspirations from its own wallet - it will be one of the few examples where the makers can flee the bondage of the takers and, leave them to stew their own social philosophy.

Still, if the experience of the split between Slovakia and the Czech Republic is instructive, then the longer term Scottish future it might be bright. Slovakia was a carping, business unfriendly sponge in their union with the Czech's. After their separation the Slovaks had a very rude economic awakening. They learned to be to appreciate business and the market, to become makers. As such BOTH countries are now prospering.

The Scots deserve a shot at experiencing their own left wing delusions. In the end, the UK and Scotland could both end up the better for it.

I agree, the Scots deserve independence from the Kingdom. I have no idea about your notion that that these people have left wing delusions. They can start to make their own future. I wish them all the best. It has been a long, long, time coming....if it happens at all.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I am ambivalent, but do not think it is a wise move. Over the long term, the country will be poorer and less relevant.

 

[dystopian]

While the negative projections people (and particularly the English campaigning against Scottish independence) have put forward as the result of independence may or may not end up being accurate; it's obviously not the way to dissuade anyone. Such rhetoric tends to do the exact opposite; making people more, not less, likely to go for independence. See it every time a politician warns that voting for a Euroskeptic party could have negative consequences; they may be right, but the euroskeptic parties always soar in popularity afterwards. Why some of the English expected the Scots could be frightened into staying with the UK is beyond me.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I am ambivalent, but do not think it is a wise move. Over the long term, the country will be poorer and less relevant.

Which country?

 

[ksen]

yes

 

[Hickdive]

Make no mistake, the nationalists of the SNP are not a left-wing party. They were supporters of the Nazis during WW2 and their leader, Arthur Donaldson, was selected by the Germans to be Scotland's Quisling in the event of a successful invasion of the UK. The SNP actively supported Margaret Thatcher when she was in opposition and it was their votes in Parliament that triggered the General Election that got her elected.

They will, however, say, do, and promise anything to secure independence.

They are only in power at Holyrood due to the disenchantment (after the Blair/Brown years) of the traditional Labour vote who stayed at home in droves in 2011 election. The SNP secured 44% of the vote in a 50% turnout.

Realising this, the SNP have embarked on a cynical campaign to make things worse for the poorer, left-leaning, elements of society whilst simultaneously blaming the UK government for all the austerity measures that they actually have devolved powers to mitigate. They have then presented themselves as the natural party of the left wing whilst Labour have been floundering for direction after Blairism.

Once they have secured power the SNP will then revert to their true right-wing nationalism. Nationalism, as we all know, invariably flourishes in times of economic disaster, and they will seek to capitalise on that in the post-independence collapse.

The flight of capital and business has already begun with numerous banks announcing they will re-locate their headquarters (and thus their tax obligations) in the event of a Yes vote. UK-wide retailers have also announced that their prices will inevitably rise to reflect the higher cost of doing business in Scotland; extra cost which is currently cross-subsidised by more-profitable areas of the UK with higher population densities.

Prices will also increase if/when independent Scotland re-joins the EU (leaving the UK means leaving the EU) as certain EU taxes that the UK currently has an opt-out on will be imposed. For example, food in the UK is not subject to Value Added Tax; new members joining the EU must apply VAT at a minimum rate of 5%.

Scotland cannot afford to be out of the EU as non-UK exports count for 30% of Scotland's sales abroad, much of that is whisky. The French for example, consume lots of Scotch, much to the chagrin of their own Cognac and Brandy producers, and have attempted on various occasions to apply their own tariffs on whisky imports contrary to EU rules. This has been successfully resisted by the UK government in the past but the tariff shutters will come down with an enormous clang the instant Scotland is out of the EU.

Scotland will be outside the EU for a minimum of five years as the incoming president of the European Commission announced a five year moratorium on new entrants when he took office a couple of months ago. However, that's the least of Scotland's problems with regard to joining the EU. The SNP's plan to have a currency union with the rest of the UK has been rejected by all three major political parties and the Governor of the Bank of England but even if they did consent, sharing a currency in this manner is contrary to the rules of entry to the EU. Using the GBP outside of a currency union, so called "sterlingisation" is also contrary to EU joining requirements.

There are many other problems with the proposed currency and here's a quick summary:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB7XMxCkorI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[maxparrish]

While the negative projections people (and particularly the English campaigning against Scottish independence) have put forward as the result of independence may or may not end up being accurate; it's obviously not the way to dissuade anyone. Such rhetoric tends to do the exact opposite; making people more, not less, likely to go for independence. See it every time a politician warns that voting for a Euroskeptic party could have negative consequences; they may be right, but the euroskeptic parties always soar in popularity afterwards. Why some of the English expected the Scots could be frightened into staying with the UK is beyond me.

Quite understandably anytime one side starts telling the other side what is good for them the advice is deeply resented and suspect. But the English have their own reasons for discouraging separation, mainly (I suspect) it is a matter of national pride and the illusion of "big nation power" and a nostalgic recollection of empire. Being "bigger" is often mistaken for being better, a prejudice that is as universal as it is wrong.

I am a strong believer in the right of succession as long as those leaving a country provide for democracy and liberties equal to or greater than the unified state. Freedom to choose, whether in economic or political affiliation is an important right among free peoples. I wish the US had this right, and the red and blue states could chose to go their own way.

 

[maxparrish]

Make no mistake, the nationalists of the SNP are not a left-wing party. They were supporters of the Nazis during WW2 and their leader, Arthur Donaldson, was selected by the Germans to be Scotland's Quisling in the event of a successful invasion of the UK. The SNP actively supported Margaret Thatcher when she was in opposition and it was their votes in Parliament that triggered the General Election that got her elected.

They will, however, say, do, and promise anything to secure independence.

They are only in power at Holyrood due to the disenchantment (after the Blair/Brown years) of the traditional Labour vote who stayed at home in droves in 2011 election. The SNP secured 44% of the vote in a 50% turnout.

If there were a title to your post, it would be "The Moochers Lament". It matters not what the SNP or Labour leadership thinks in the moment, it only matters what the newly independent Scottish would think and do in the long run. Rest assured, they would shape party lines reflective their ideological sympathies, interests, and entitlement groups. Once the Scottish vs. the English paradigm is shattered, Scots will not be focusing on the external enemy, but the internal opposition.

If the Scots are further left than the English, rest assured they will form a State reflective of those entitlement demands. And if they do, the brutal lesson of economics will sober them up quickly, something long overdue.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I am ambivalent, but do not think it is a wise move. Over the long term, the country will be poorer and less relevant.

Which country?

King Franz's¹ Scotland.


¹The technical king of England if the Acts of Union are repealed entirely.

 

[ksen]

I know I can always count on max to post about how the dirty, thieving, mooching poors should get what they deserve.

 

[maxparrish]

I know I can always count on max to post about how the dirty, thieving, mooching poors should get what they deserve.

You betcha!

 

[arkirk]

While the negative projections people (and particularly the English campaigning against Scottish independence) have put forward as the result of independence may or may not end up being accurate; it's obviously not the way to dissuade anyone. Such rhetoric tends to do the exact opposite; making people more, not less, likely to go for independence. See it every time a politician warns that voting for a Euroskeptic party could have negative consequences; they may be right, but the euroskeptic parties always soar in popularity afterwards. Why some of the English expected the Scots could be frightened into staying with the UK is beyond me.

Quite understandably anytime one side starts telling the other side what is good for them the advice is deeply resented and suspect. But the English have their own reasons for discouraging separation, mainly (I suspect) it is a matter of national pride and the illusion of "big nation power" and a nostalgic recollection of empire. Being "bigger" is often mistaken for being better, a prejudice that is as universal as it is wrong.

I am a strong believer in the right of succession as long as those leaving a country provide for democracy and liberties equal to or greater than the unified state. Freedom to choose, whether in economic or political affiliation is an important right among free peoples. I wish the US had this right, and the red and blue states could chose to go their own way.

The UK hung onto Australia. Scotland is a different matter. No doubt, a new government will have its work cut out for itself. I don't think what happened in WWII loyalties will have much significance in modern Scottish politics.

 

[ksen]

I know I can always count on max to post about how the dirty, thieving, mooching poors should get what they deserve.

You betcha!

:fistbump:

 

[Hickdive]

Make no mistake, the nationalists of the SNP are not a left-wing party. They were supporters of the Nazis during WW2 and their leader, Arthur Donaldson, was selected by the Germans to be Scotland's Quisling in the event of a successful invasion of the UK. The SNP actively supported Margaret Thatcher when she was in opposition and it was their votes in Parliament that triggered the General Election that got her elected.

They will, however, say, do, and promise anything to secure independence.

They are only in power at Holyrood due to the disenchantment (after the Blair/Brown years) of the traditional Labour vote who stayed at home in droves in 2011 election. The SNP secured 44% of the vote in a 50% turnout.

If there were a title to your post, it would be "The Moochers Lament". It matters not what the SNP or Labour leadership thinks in the moment, it only matters what the newly independent Scottish would think and do in the long run. Rest assured, they would shape party lines reflective their ideological sympathies, interests, and entitlement groups. Once the Scottish vs. the English paradigm is shattered, Scots will not be focusing on the external enemy, but the internal opposition.

If the Scots are further left than the English, rest assured they will form a State reflective of those entitlement demands. And if they do, the brutal lesson of economics will sober them up quickly, something long overdue.

You seem to think that pointing out the fact that Labour isn't in power in Scotland due to their own supporters' failure to vote implies I am a Labour supporter. I am not. I an simply pointing out the electoral and historical facts.

You also seem to have convinced yourself that the SNP are a left-wing party, they aren't.

Whether or not Labour gets into power in an independent Scotland is irrelevant as effectively harsh economic reality will mean no matter who is elected or what policies they pursue they will be as effective as re-arranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.

That is reality and being Scottish I don't want to go down that route. However you seem to be taking delight at the prospect of Scots voting yes and suffering the inevitable consequences. Why you should enjoy people voting to shoot themselves in the head economically and socially is beyond me.

 

[ksen]

Why you should enjoy people voting to shoot themselves in the head economically and socially is beyond me.

Hickdive, welcome to American conservatism. max will be your guide.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Why you should enjoy people voting to shoot themselves in the head economically and socially is beyond me.

Hickdive, welcome to American conservatism. max will be your guide.

What ksen said

 

[Keith&Co.]

Why you should enjoy people voting to shoot themselves in the head economically and socially is beyond me.

He thinks they're on the left.
He thinks they're going to run the country as a leftist paradise.
He thinks that a leftist paradise will fail miserably, making it easier for the convervatives elsehwere to point at the social and economic self-administered headshot and say, 'See! That's how you get ants!' and win arguments about how to run countries conservatively.
And if they fail for reasons that have nothing to do with leftism, he can still point and say 'leftism did that.'

 

[Underseer]

After giving it some thought, I hope the Scots approve independence.

Mind you, I have always had a great admiration for the Scots, in part because of the many contributions of the Scottish enlightenment as well as their accomplishments in North America. Unfortunately in the UK they have degenerated into a supplicant population, dependent on upon large tax subsidies from the remainder of the UK. And like many welfare dependent sub-cultures they suffer from the paradox of believing that is their lack of accomplishment stems from not sucking an even greater dole from 'the other', the producers in the UK who support the Scottish free-loaders.

The region receives a net £2000 to £3000 per person yearly subsidy, and if there is independence Scotland will only get a share of North Sea Oil revenue from production (which is falling). The Scots will be booted out of their indulgent parents house, and be given some tough love - they will not be moaching any longer. So if the laborite North wishes to increase the size of their welfare state (which they claim they do) they will have to dig very deep into the pockets of fellow Scots. I can't think of anything more appropriate than for a foolish people to experience the blessings and cost of it's greater leftist aspirations from its own wallet - it will be one of the few examples where the makers can flee the bondage of the takers and, leave them to stew their own social philosophy.

Still, if the experience of the split between Slovakia and the Czech Republic is instructive, then the longer term Scottish future it might be bright. Slovakia was a carping, business unfriendly sponge in their union with the Czech's. After their separation the Slovaks had a very rude economic awakening. They learned to be to appreciate business and the market, to become makers. As such BOTH countries are now prospering.

The Scots deserve a shot at experiencing their own left wing delusions. In the end, the UK and Scotland could both end up the better for it.

So if they just stop helping those darned lazy poor people, then perhaps the Scots can become self-dependent and successful like all those third world countries! Huzzah for neo-feudalist logic!