The liberal transgender/queer paradox

[DrZoidberg]

I'm not the first one to point out this, but the queer community seems oblivious to it, while the transgendered community isn't. The queers are white knighting like fuck and the transgendereds are... well... I haven't been able to put my finger on any single voice here. I suspect it's the result of them suddenly getting recognition in a world where they earlier were actively supressed.

So what's the paradox?

If sexuality is mostly a social construct. This seems to be the queer position. Then why bother changing genders? If presenting different genders is available to everyone, (ie gender fluidity) why does this one subgroup seem really wedded to switching to the other gender. According to queer theory, it shouldn't make a difference.

The two sides here seem to be CIS-gendered and CIS-presenting, AND transexuals, on the same side, who are really fixed about their single gender and happy about being that. And the other side which is the gender fluid ones. Why are the transexuals and queers on the same sides? Shouldn't they be mortal enemies in this?

Not to mention the fact that gender fluids tend to look very androgynous, ie an androgynous physical appearance. Which I think defeats the idea that it's only in the head. Perhaps if you are androgynous physically, perhaps that just goes to show that physique and psyche hang together. Not to mention that transexuals who start with hormone treatments tend to have their sexual tastes change. It's very common for pre-op transexual woman (so a man who identifies as a woman) to be attracted to women, but after the hormone treatment start being attracted to men.

What I'm saying is... can we put a nail in the idea that gender fluidity is for everybody, and quit holding it up as an ideal? I think it's bullshit. I think it's like any sexual taste. Some people are into it. One sexual flavour is no better than any other... and stop trying to convert the world to whatever you're into? That goes for everybody.

Thoughts?

 

[Jobar]

Can't say I've noticed much in the way of evangelistic transgenderism, or anyone preaching gender fluidity. But I don't watch TV, so there may be some of that going on that I just haven't seen.

Seems to me that most people are hetero, and mostly comfortable with their genetic sex. I think that, like homosexuals, transsexuals and ambisexuals are a minority, and probably always will be. (Or until medical science advances to the point where changing sex, both appearance and function, is a simple and cheap procedure; and I wouldn't want to bet that ever happens.)

 

[repoman]

The statement on the right is much, much further from any possible truth.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Can't say I've noticed much in the way of evangelistic transgenderism, or anyone preaching gender fluidity. But I don't watch TV, so there may be some of that going on that I just haven't seen.

Seems to me that most people are hetero, and mostly comfortable with their genetic sex. I think that, like homosexuals, transsexuals and ambisexuals are a minority, and probably always will be. (Or until medical science advances to the point where changing sex, both appearance and function, is a simple and cheap procedure; and I wouldn't want to bet that ever happens.)

The queer, gay, TS and kinky crowd is my tribe. So I'm very close to it. There's a definite sense of superiority among gender fluids. It's the new "As an enlightened person I just want to say....". Its extremely tiring

They definitely think they sit in the secret to happiness. Not all of them of course. But it is a distressingly common attitude

 

[repoman]

Can't say I've noticed much in the way of evangelistic transgenderism, or anyone preaching gender fluidity. But I don't watch TV, so there may be some of that going on that I just haven't seen.

Seems to me that most people are hetero, and mostly comfortable with their genetic sex. I think that, like homosexuals, transsexuals and ambisexuals are a minority, and probably always will be. (Or until medical science advances to the point where changing sex, both appearance and function, is a simple and cheap procedure; and I wouldn't want to bet that ever happens.)

The queer, gay, TS and kinky crowd is my tribe. So I'm very close to it. There's a definite sense of superiority among gender fluids. It's the new "As an enlightened person I just want to say....". Its extremely tiring

They definitely think they sit in the secret to happiness. Not all of them of course. But it is a distressingly common attitude

Sounds like some are just jostling for status in their particular social group. When they feel superiority they exude superiority like top baboons in a troop. But when they meet people who are totally unschooled in these concepts they look odd.

If someone is gender fluid for non status seeking reasons that is likely to be a healthy thing.

People have been "gender-rigid" to fit in and maintain status. A straight, cis guy who likes knitting or soap operas and musicals may have been hiding that to maintain status and all that comes with it.

 

[Trausti]

Can't say I've noticed much in the way of evangelistic transgenderism, or anyone preaching gender fluidity. But I don't watch TV, so there may be some of that going on that I just haven't seen.

Seems to me that most people are hetero, and mostly comfortable with their genetic sex. I think that, like homosexuals, transsexuals and ambisexuals are a minority, and probably always will be. (Or until medical science advances to the point where changing sex, both appearance and function, is a simple and cheap procedure; and I wouldn't want to bet that ever happens.)

The queer, gay, TS and kinky crowd is my tribe. So I'm very close to it. There's a definite sense of superiority among gender fluids. It's the new "As an enlightened person I just want to say....". Its extremely tiring

They definitely think they sit in the secret to happiness. Not all of them of course. But it is a distressingly common attitude

Well, this is what you get with identity politics. Transgenders have been elevated to saintly status; laws and social mores must be changed for them - despite them being a super small subset of the already LGBT subset. They act like privileged brats because Western society has made them privileged brats.

 

[repoman]

Can't say I've noticed much in the way of evangelistic transgenderism, or anyone preaching gender fluidity. But I don't watch TV, so there may be some of that going on that I just haven't seen.

Seems to me that most people are hetero, and mostly comfortable with their genetic sex. I think that, like homosexuals, transsexuals and ambisexuals are a minority, and probably always will be. (Or until medical science advances to the point where changing sex, both appearance and function, is a simple and cheap procedure; and I wouldn't want to bet that ever happens.)

The queer, gay, TS and kinky crowd is my tribe. So I'm very close to it. There's a definite sense of superiority among gender fluids. It's the new "As an enlightened person I just want to say....". Its extremely tiring

They definitely think they sit in the secret to happiness. Not all of them of course. But it is a distressingly common attitude

Well, this is what you get with identity politics. Transgenders have been elevated to saintly status; laws and social mores must be changed for them - despite them being a super small subset of the already LGBT subset. They act like privileged brats because Western society has made them privileged brats.

It is an massive over correction for millennia of actual mistreatment. It is also a way for the economically predatory media and financial companies to pinkwash about how much of public good they are. Globochem bank - fucking over tons of people, but hey they love the LGBT community!

 

[DrZoidberg]

Can't say I've noticed much in the way of evangelistic transgenderism, or anyone preaching gender fluidity. But I don't watch TV, so there may be some of that going on that I just haven't seen.

Seems to me that most people are hetero, and mostly comfortable with their genetic sex. I think that, like homosexuals, transsexuals and ambisexuals are a minority, and probably always will be. (Or until medical science advances to the point where changing sex, both appearance and function, is a simple and cheap procedure; and I wouldn't want to bet that ever happens.)

The queer, gay, TS and kinky crowd is my tribe. So I'm very close to it. There's a definite sense of superiority among gender fluids. It's the new "As an enlightened person I just want to say....". Its extremely tiring

They definitely think they sit in the secret to happiness. Not all of them of course. But it is a distressingly common attitude

Well, this is what you get with identity politics. Transgenders have been elevated to saintly status; laws and social mores must be changed for them - despite them being a super small subset of the already LGBT subset. They act like privileged brats because Western society has made them privileged brats.

It's not the only effect. I suspect there's a lot of "lost souls" gravitating towards it just to fit in somewhere. A common complaint from queer women only gatherings is all the female identified TS'ers constantly interrupting and mindlessly babbling just as we'd expect from a mansplaining man. Hard to tell where the femininity can be found.

I hate identity politics. I think it's pure poison. I think Trump is the reaction to it. The left had it coming for being so damn spineless about this. 50 years ago the leftists were the heroes. Not so much difference between the camps now

 

[DrZoidberg]

I strongly suspect that the queer identity emerged as homosexuality became mainstream. When the establishment started to feverishly embrace gays and lesbians as a way to prove they were good people, us normals , (CIS-gendered) started feeling left out. So the queer identity emerged so that straights could steal back the spotlight. What we call unchecked privilege

I remember a gay friend of mine complaining at a party how queers repeatedly got visibly freaked out when they realized that he wasn't pretend gay (like them) and he wasn't in hot pants just to impress the ladies.

 

[repoman]

Well, this is what you get with identity politics. Transgenders have been elevated to saintly status; laws and social mores must be changed for them - despite them being a super small subset of the already LGBT subset. They act like privileged brats because Western society has made them privileged brats.

It is an massive over correction for millennia of actual mistreatment. It is also a way for the economically predatory media and financial companies to pinkwash about how much of public good they are. Globochem bank - fucking over tons of people, but hey they love the LGBT community!

As an example, look at the sponsors to this conference, tons of bad corporate actors here. I don't disagree with them sponsoring this, but there is some pinkwashing here for sure.

http://outandequal.org/partnerships/

Boeing, American Airlines, Apple, Bank of America, Dell, VMWare, Sodexo, Verizon, Disney, Deloitte, Altria, HP, HSBC Bank, Marsh&McLennan, Comcast NBC Universal, Northrop Grumman, Paul Hastings, Pepsico, Toyota, Wells Fargo, Alix Partners, Chubb, Citi, Clorox, CNA, Exelon, First Data, Gilead, Hilton, indeed, JP Morgan Chase, Lockheed Martin, Marriott, Mass Mutual, McDonalds, MGM Resorts, Microsoft, Nissan, Oracle, Pfizer, RSM, SalesForce, SC Johnson, T. Rowe Price. Target, Texas Instruments, Travelers, Walmart, Uber, Whirlpool, Xerox, Abbvie, Aetna, AIG, Air Products, Allstate, Aramark, Astellas, AT&T, BAyer, BlackRock, BNY Mellon, Capital One, CBRE, Chevron, Cisco, Cracker Barrel, Darden, Dow, Dupont, Exxon Mobil, EY, Freddie Mac, Genentech, GMC, GSK, Intel, Intuit, Leidos, Masco, Merck, MillerCoors, Mondelez International, Northwestern Mutual, Phillips 66, Praxair, Protiviti, Publicos Groupe Egalite, Rockwell Collins, Robert Half, SAP, Southwest, Stanley Black&Decker, State Farm, State Street, T-Mobile, TE Connectivity, United Technologies, Visa, Volkwagen, DXC Technology, The Harris Poll, McAfee, Northern Trust, Queerty, S&P Global, Symantec, UPS, and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

ETA, sorry meant to edit and not respond to my own post.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

PR seeking and false or opportunistic politically correct messaging for companies is hardly anything new. This is just another case of it. My personal favourite example is WWE. There isn't anything they won't do for such PR and they basically admitted it.

https://twitter.com/stephmcmahon/status/581881800659591168?lang=en

"philanthropy is the future of marketing, it's the way brands r going 2 win" -@biz Stone co-founder @twitter #WWEBPS

They pimp out everything from breast cancer to bullying. SJWs extreme.

 

[J842P]

Can't say I've noticed much in the way of evangelistic transgenderism, or anyone preaching gender fluidity. But I don't watch TV, so there may be some of that going on that I just haven't seen.

Seems to me that most people are hetero, and mostly comfortable with their genetic sex. I think that, like homosexuals, transsexuals and ambisexuals are a minority, and probably always will be. (Or until medical science advances to the point where changing sex, both appearance and function, is a simple and cheap procedure; and I wouldn't want to bet that ever happens.)

The queer, gay, TS and kinky crowd is my tribe. So I'm very close to it. There's a definite sense of superiority among gender fluids. It's the new "As an enlightened person I just want to say....". Its extremely tiring

They definitely think they sit in the secret to happiness. Not all of them of course. But it is a distressingly common attitude

Well, this is what you get with identity politics. Transgenders have been elevated to saintly status; laws and social mores must be changed for them - despite them being a super small subset of the already LGBT subset. They act like privileged brats because Western society has made them privileged brats.

The transgenders aren't the gender fluids. They are the `Q` in LGBTQ. Transgender people are the T.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Well, this is what you get with identity politics. Transgenders have been elevated to saintly status; laws and social mores must be changed for them - despite them being a super small subset of the already LGBT subset. They act like privileged brats because Western society has made them privileged brats.

The transgenders aren't the gender fluids. They are the `Q` in LGBTQ. Transgender people are the T.

I think everybody already knew that?

 

[J842P]

Well, this is what you get with identity politics. Transgenders have been elevated to saintly status; laws and social mores must be changed for them - despite them being a super small subset of the already LGBT subset. They act like privileged brats because Western society has made them privileged brats.

The transgenders aren't the gender fluids. They are the `Q` in LGBTQ. Transgender people are the T.

I think everybody already knew that?

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but in the post of your's that Trausti was responding to, you were referring to the Queer identifiers, not transgender people, no?

 

[ronburgundy]

View attachment 17377

The statement on the right is much, much further from any possible truth.

This image is closer to where I thought the OP was heading, and it's not just an conundrum for some liberal views of LGBT, but forms of feminism that deny psychological differences between the sexes (common in arguments that treat differential outcomes between men and women in STEM schooling or the workplace as prima facie evidence of sex discrimination).

If gender is a social construct and/or all sex differences beyond genitals and non-neural physiology are culturally determined, then no one can be born the wrong gender or even born a different gender than their biological sex. Thus, a person cannot have some basic need on which their well being depends to be viewed or treated as any particular gender. In fact, such a strong need to be a particular gender would be a form of mental health dysfunction. That would apply not only to trans people but cis-genders who feel a strong need to be viewed as either masculine or feminine in accord with their biological sex.

OTOH, while the extreme versions (which doesn't mean its not widely held) of "Gender is a social construct" and "born the wrong gender" are scientifically unsound and incompatible with each other, the more qualified versions of each are not, Namely, while there are some neurological differences that contribute to different preferences, tendencies, roles, and outcomes between biological males and females these differences are greatly enhanced, fostered and coerced by socialization and culture. This view is not only the most consistent with all relevant evidence but also allows for there to be some degree of incompatibility between a person's genitalia and innate preferences and psychological tendencies that naturally make them identify more with people of the opposite biological sex. It doesn't mean that some bio males are born wanting to have a vagina or wanting to wear dresses, be less hairy, and speak differently.

Thus, there is no scientifically sound basis to view a transgender's biological sex or genitals as "wrong" or view sex change as medically neccessary for psychological health. Transgender females are not likely born wanting to be treated like current society treats women, just like cis-gendered women are not born wanting to be treated like that. At most, they are born with psychological traits more similar to the average female with than their own sex. That naturally leads them to want to be treated as part of the female group, but how that culture treats women and expects women to act will determine how that more basic and general desire manifests itself. In a culture with weak gender norms that don't go beyond natural tendencies, such people would not feel as much need to be referred to as the opposite of their birth sex and/or to alter their biology. But in a culture like ours where gender norms are turned into unhealthy masculine/feminine extremes, the desire to go to extremes to establish oneself as part of that sex group will greater.

BTW, the above does not mean that all trans have some biological basis. It just allows that some might, while also allowing that some people may use gender norm violations for other social-psychological purposes.

 

[repoman]

Is there a Bayesian for this? This will help the x (transgender) fraction of the child population that need it. It may also help the (1-x) fraction of the population who don't personally need it, but can gain understanding.

But, does this make a small fraction, y, of the (1-x) children consider that they may transgender when would not before seeing these types of videos. What about autistic children who hyperfocus on issues to their detriment?

https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/03/why-are-a-disproportionate-number-of-autistic-youth-transgender.html

x are helped but are y(1-x) hurt?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think everybody already knew that?

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but in the post of your's that Trausti was responding to, you were referring to the Queer identifiers, not transgender people, no?

I was referring to both.

 

[Politesse]

I'm not the first one to point out this, but the queer community seems oblivious to it, while the transgendered community isn't. The queers are white knighting like fuck and the transgendereds are... well... I haven't been able to put my finger on any single voice here. I suspect it's the result of them suddenly getting recognition in a world where they earlier were actively supressed.

So what's the paradox?

If sexuality is mostly a social construct. This seems to be the queer position. Then why bother changing genders? If presenting different genders is available to everyone, (ie gender fluidity) why does this one subgroup seem really wedded to switching to the other gender. According to queer theory, it shouldn't make a difference.

The two sides here seem to be CIS-gendered and CIS-presenting, AND transexuals, on the same side, who are really fixed about their single gender and happy about being that. And the other side which is the gender fluid ones. Why are the transexuals and queers on the same sides? Shouldn't they be mortal enemies in this?

Not to mention the fact that gender fluids tend to look very androgynous, ie an androgynous physical appearance. Which I think defeats the idea that it's only in the head. Perhaps if you are androgynous physically, perhaps that just goes to show that physique and psyche hang together. Not to mention that transexuals who start with hormone treatments tend to have their sexual tastes change. It's very common for pre-op transexual woman (so a man who identifies as a woman) to be attracted to women, but after the hormone treatment start being attracted to men.

What I'm saying is... can we put a nail in the idea that gender fluidity is for everybody, and quit holding it up as an ideal? I think it's bullshit. I think it's like any sexual taste. Some people are into it. One sexual flavour is no better than any other... and stop trying to convert the world to whatever you're into? That goes for everybody.

Thoughts?

I don't quite grasp your point. Why would gender being a social construct result in no one having a clear gender preference? Money is a social construct, but that doesn't stop people from exhibiting class preferences; religion is a social construct, but people clearly have preferred religions.

Most people are cisgendered, and never bother to question it. Everyone knows this. People are campaigning for the right to define themselves differently if they so choose. Not for everyone to not have a gender identity. You don't have to be gender fluid, but you should treat people decently if they are. That is the end goal of activism in this arena. Paranoid ideas about a secret gay agenda to turn everyone gay have had their idiotic day in the sun already, let's not repeat the collective mistake with gender preference in place of sexuality as the dart board of social ire and paranoia.

And the LBGT alliance was never about a perception of all being "the same thing"; it is a political alliance of people who are all persecuted by the same folks for the same reasons, and therefore felt the need for a collective lobby despite differences of situation.

 

[repoman]

I'm not the first one to point out this, but the queer community seems oblivious to it, while the transgendered community isn't. The queers are white knighting like fuck and the transgendereds are... well... I haven't been able to put my finger on any single voice here. I suspect it's the result of them suddenly getting recognition in a world where they earlier were actively supressed.

So what's the paradox?

If sexuality is mostly a social construct. This seems to be the queer position. Then why bother changing genders? If presenting different genders is available to everyone, (ie gender fluidity) why does this one subgroup seem really wedded to switching to the other gender. According to queer theory, it shouldn't make a difference.

The two sides here seem to be CIS-gendered and CIS-presenting, AND transexuals, on the same side, who are really fixed about their single gender and happy about being that. And the other side which is the gender fluid ones. Why are the transexuals and queers on the same sides? Shouldn't they be mortal enemies in this?

Not to mention the fact that gender fluids tend to look very androgynous, ie an androgynous physical appearance. Which I think defeats the idea that it's only in the head. Perhaps if you are androgynous physically, perhaps that just goes to show that physique and psyche hang together. Not to mention that transexuals who start with hormone treatments tend to have their sexual tastes change. It's very common for pre-op transexual woman (so a man who identifies as a woman) to be attracted to women, but after the hormone treatment start being attracted to men.

What I'm saying is... can we put a nail in the idea that gender fluidity is for everybody, and quit holding it up as an ideal? I think it's bullshit. I think it's like any sexual taste. Some people are into it. One sexual flavour is no better than any other... and stop trying to convert the world to whatever you're into? That goes for everybody.

Thoughts?

I don't quite grasp your point. Why would gender being a social construct result in no one having a clear gender preference? Money is a social construct, but that doesn't stop people from exhibiting class preferences; religion is a social construct, but people clearly have preferred religions.

Most people are cisgendered, and never bother to question it. Everyone knows this. People are campaigning for the right to define themselves differently if they so choose. Not for everyone to not have a gender identity. You don't have to be gender fluid, but you should treat people decently if they are. That is the end goal of activism in this arena. Paranoid ideas about a secret gay agenda to turn everyone gay have had their idiotic day in the sun already, let's not repeat the collective mistake with gender preference in place of sexuality as the dart board of social ire and paranoia.

And the LBGT alliance was never about a perception of all being "the same thing"; it is a political alliance of people who are all persecuted by the same folks for the same reasons, and therefore felt the need for a collective lobby despite differences of situation.