Eliminating Qualia

[untermensche]

What is called "objective" evidence is evidence two or more minds agree is the same thing.

If you claim there is "objective" evidence you are assuming minds exist.

All evidence is an experience of a mind.

But a mind is not just something that experiences.

It is also something that moves the arm.

And something that doubts claims that minds do not exist made by minds.

 

[DBT]

No.

Thoughts are something a mind experiences.

And something a mind arranges and orders.

That is your belief.

To have a belief means there is something and it has a belief.

A brain forms beliefs. A brain stores beliefs in its memory function. Beliefs stored in brain memory effect how a brain perceives the world and self and how that brain responds to the objects and events of the world, ie, interpreting through the filter of faith, confirming and reinforcing existing beliefs through selection bias and interpretation, which becomes the state of the mind of a brain.

 

[Subsymbolic]

What is called "objective" evidence is evidence two or more minds agree is the same thing.

Why am I not remotely surprised that your definition of 'objective' is both self serving and wrong. Objectiveness is a about the evidence, not the attitude to it. Roughly, an objective belief is based on a fact that any reasonable person who understood the fact would agree was true. Although even then I'd hedge that with caveats. Most philosophers I know have Popper's: Objective Knowledge A Realist View of Logic, Physics, and History , Kuhn’s ’structures’ and Quine's ‘Two Dogmas’ in the back of their mind when talking about objectivity.

If you claim there is "objective" evidence you are assuming minds exist.

Nope. Facts and beliefs certainly, but only a p-zombie would want to build a mind purely from beliefs.

All evidence is an experience of a mind.

In that case it should be a doddle to prove that you have a mind. I note that you haven't remotely managed that yet...

But a mind is not just something that experiences.

It is also something that moves the arm.

You have no objective evidence for this claim.

And something that doubts claims that minds do not exist made by minds.

Obviously this sentence makes little sense. However when trying to make sense of it do I read it as:

And something that doubts, claims that minds do not exist made by minds.

Or

And something that doubts claims, that minds do not exist made by minds.

Or

And something that doubts claims that, minds do not exist made by minds.

Or

And something that doubts, claims that minds do not exist, made by minds.

So, is your putative doubter making the claim or doubting the claim? The reading closest to being grammatically correct is the final one that seems to state that minds made by minds do not exist. I guess it's hard to make sense when you are a P-zombie.

 

[untermensche]

Why am I not remotely surprised that your definition of 'objective' is both self serving and wrong. Objectiveness is a about the evidence, not the attitude to it.

All evidence is a human experience.

There is no other kind of evidence.

Facts and beliefs certainly, but only a p-zombie would want to build a mind purely from beliefs.

I have no evidence of a p-zombie and I doubt anything like it could exist and actually have an experience.

What is your evidence (something a human can experience) of p-zombies? Show me one.

Constantly bringing into a discussion something that does not exist nor could exist is a childish dodge.

And a belief is when a mind believes something.

So again, just like with so-called "objective" evidence you assume a mind.

It is not possible to not assume a mind.

All we are is because we have a mind. A mind that experiences and acts.

You have no objective evidence for this claim.

Again asking for "objective" evidence is assuming an experiencing mind exists.

Because all evidence is something a mind experiences. You have no answer to this. Nothing I should take note of at least. Some crap about me proving absolute truths.

Saying "objective" just means the mind really really believes it is there.

You have your proof in the assumptions of your questions. You assume a mind again and again.

You cannot help yourself.

And here is the sentence. You display your poor mind in your examination of it.

And something that doubts claims, that minds do not exist, made by minds.

 

[untermensche]

To have a belief means there is something and it has a belief.

A brain forms beliefs. A brain stores beliefs in its memory function. Beliefs stored in brain memory effect how a brain perceives the world and self and how that brain responds to the objects and events of the world, ie, interpreting through the filter of faith, confirming and reinforcing existing beliefs through selection bias and interpretation, which becomes the state of the mind of a brain.

A belief is something a mind has. A mind is something that can hold and articulate ideas.

Brains as far as we know have no beliefs. They cannot talk or express themselves in any way.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I have no evidence of a p-zombie and I doubt anything like it could exist and actually have an experience.

That is exactly what a P-Zombie would say.

This is the evidence that proves you are a P-Zombie.

 

[untermensche]

I have no evidence of a p-zombie and I doubt anything like it could exist and actually have an experience.

That is exactly what a P-Zombie would say.

This is the evidence that proves you are a P-Zombie.

How do you know what zombies will say?

What is your evidence of what zombies do?

If I am a zombie what am I communicating to?

 

[untermensche]

Is the only answer anybody has is this insane resort to bringing in imaginary nonexistent entities?

There is an infinity of difference between knowing you are having an experience and reporting you are having an experience.

An honest human knows they are having experiences. They know it absolutely.

And they know that a report from another human is an experience.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Is the only answer anybody has is this insane resort to bringing in imaginary nonexistent entities?

Including you.

An honest human knows they are having experiences.

An honest human does not rely entirely on equivocation, esoteric vague definition, declaration and fiat for their position.

 

[untermensche]

Is the only answer anybody has is this insane resort to bringing in imaginary nonexistent entities?

Including you.

An honest human knows they are having experiences.

An honest human does not rely entirely on equivocation, esoteric vague definition, declaration and fiat for their position.

Then I am the honest one here.

If all you have are your zombies you have nothing.

They are a figment of your mind.

To ask for objective evidence is to say minds exist.

Because all evidence is an experience of a mind.

Tell me about some evidence that is not some experience of your mind.

 

[untermensche]

The word "evidence" means a mind experienced it and believes it is there.

 

[Subsymbolic]

Is the only answer anybody has is this insane resort to bringing in imaginary nonexistent entities?

You started it.

There is an infinity of difference between knowing you are having an experience and reporting you are having an experience.

So you don't even know what the word 'know' means then. No surprise there.

An honest human knows they are having experiences. They know it absolutely.

An honest human doesn't pretend to know what they are talking about when they have no training, experience or aptitude in a complex multidisciplinary technical subject.

And they know that a report from another human is an experience.

If there's one lesson from the last century of philosophy psychology and cognitive science it is that how things seem is no guide to how things are. If we followed your approach we'd allow mass hallucination and religious hysteria to inform the ontology of science.

If I introduce the word 'theophany' instead of 'experience' you can see how fundamentally bollocks your argument is. Or are you claiming that if two god botherers claim to have glimpoosed the face of God then that's proof of the existence of God.

- - - Updated - - -

The word "evidence" means a mind experienced it and believes it is there.

Only in Untermensch's zombie book of wrong.

 

[untermensche]

You started it.

Absolute delusion.

I say that I experience. I do not talk about zombies.

I suspect there are other entities that experience also.

I ask what I believe are other entities out there if they also experience.

Some say the do.

Some talk about zombies.

An honest human doesn't pretend to know what they are talking about when they have no training, experience or aptitude in a complex multidisciplinary technical subject.

A seriously deluded mind thinks there are magic ideas and special credentials that have something to say about experience.

All any human knows about experience is they have them.

Not one other thing is known about them.

You are nothing but an example of an emperor with no clothes. You have no understanding of the mind or what it is or how it works.

But you have your experiences. That is all you have.

There is nothing you have ever known about that was not an experience.

The word "evidence" means a mind experienced it and believes it is there.

Only in Untermensch's zombie book of wrong.

Like a dog to its vomit.

You have nothing but some delusions about zombies.

And those delusions are something your mind experiences.

 

[Subsymbolic]

Absolute delusion.

I say that I experience. I do not talk about zombies.

I suspect there are other entities that experience also.

I ask what I believe are other entities out there if they also experience.

Some say the do.

Some talk about zombies.



A seriously deluded mind thinks there are magic ideas and special credentials that have something to say about experience.

All any human knows about experience is they have them.

Not one other thing is known about them.

You are nothing but an example of an emperor with no clothes. You have no understanding of the mind or what it is or how it works.

But you have your experiences. That is all you have.

There is nothing you have ever known about that was not an experience.

The word "evidence" means a mind experienced it and believes it is there.

Only in Untermensch's zombie book of wrong.

Like a dog to its vomit.

You have nothing but some delusions about zombies.

And those delusions are something your mind experiences.

I’m still waiting for objective evidence that you have a mind. It’s your standard that you expect others to meet.

You can’t.

Which I find amusing.

 

[untermensche]

I’m still waiting for objective evidence that you have a mind. It’s your standard that you expect others to meet.

How would you know you had evidence?

Objective or not.

There is only evidence by the way.

The word "objective" is entirely superfluous.

You are asking me to give you something you can experience.

And claiming experience is a fiction.

You are being laughed at.

 

[untermensche]

Seeing is an experience.

Hearing is an experience.

The sense of touch is an experience.

Thinking is an experience.

The only evidence a human has is some experience.

There is no direct contact with anything in the world.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

The word "evidence" means a brain experienced it and believes it is there.

Declaration is not proof.

 

[untermensche]

The word "evidence" means a brain experienced it and believes it is there.

Declaration is not proof.

The brain is the instrument.

The mind is the music.

You have no evidence a brain experiences.

Which cell specifically do you think is experiencing?

How does a cell experience?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Seeing is an experience.

Hearing is an experience.

The sense of touch is an experience.

Thinking is an experience.

The only evidence a human has is some experience.

All things a P-Zombie would say in order to trick us into thinking it was human.

There is no direct contact with anything in the world.

The body has direct contact with many things in the world.

 

[untermensche]

Seeing is an experience.

Hearing is an experience.

The sense of touch is an experience.

Thinking is an experience.

The only evidence a human has is some experience.

All things a P-Zombie would say in order to trick us into thinking it was human.

There is no direct contact with anything in the world.

The body has direct contact with many things in the world.

How do you know what zombies will say?

Stop avoiding this question. It is dishonest.

What you call the body is something experienced.