Christians, about your persecution complex

[Tom Sawyer]

Wait a minute. Why is it that if you marry your wife's mom, you have to be burnt to death, but you just have to generically die in whatever way is convenient if you have gay sex? It seems to me that if you're going to specify the manner of death for capital offenses, you should either do it for all of them or for none of them. It's kind of weird to just throw a single specific manner of execution into the middle like that.

Also, WTF is with the next verse after that:

If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

So, if someone breaks into my house and rapes my dog, I have to kill my dog? That's some bullshit right there.

What, you want to be responsible for unleashing upon the world an abominable race of human/dog hybrids?

You disgust me.

No, I simply want my standards of morality to be defined by a god who understands enough about high school biology to understand that humans and dogs cannot reproduce.

While I do understand that the dog was asking for it by running around town in nothing but her fur and wagging her tail in the air like some kind of whore, that's the kind of thing which should be punishable by a few lashes at best, not summary execution.

 

[bilby]

What, you want to be responsible for unleashing upon the world an abominable race of human/dog hybrids?

You disgust me.

No, I simply want my standards of morality to be defined by a god who understands enough about high school biology to understand that humans and dogs cannot reproduce.

While I do understand that the dog was asking for it by running around town in nothing but her fur and wagging her tail in the air like some kind of whore, that's the kind of thing which should be punishable by a few lashes at best, not summary execution.

You are kidding, right? I have yet to encounter a God that knows what shape the planet He created is, and now you want Him to learn something as complex as biology??

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, why can’t he just give some innocent teenager cancer so he dies and goes to Heaven and can explain it to him?

 

[Lion IRC]

...I can't recall, just off the top of my head, if there's anywhere in the Bible where a witch was burned, because "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

I thought we were talking about whether God commands us to stone "gay people".

...Still, I trust that you won't deny that many, many thousands of women, and men, have been burned as witches, because of that pronouncement?

Burning people who aren't witches would NOT be biblical.
The bible doesn't say burn, stone, hang, lethally inject witches (or gay people.)
Do yourself a favor and check out the life of Boston Judge Samuel Sewall - a 17th century Puritan - who was actively involved in the Salem witch trials. He abjectly subsequently repented and recanted his false claims that the bible was the motivation for what actually took place.
You see, what you overlook is that it was Christians who put an end to this unbiblical practice.

...I admit that I'm not sure there's anywhere in the Bible where an actual stoning, to the death, is described.

Thank you.

...But it's ridiculous to claim that therefore no stonings took place.

That's NOT my claim.
My claim is that the bible does not command us to stone gay people, or adulterers, or witches.

You know, the bible says the wages of sin are death.
Do you think that is an invocation for me to put every sinner I find to death?

Still and all, I'm heartened by the pro-life advocacy of atheists here who are seemingly against capital punishment. I wonder how y'all feel about the death penalty for someone who kidnaps little children and practices canibalism.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

They were illegally trespassing on her property and eating her house. Stand Your Ground laws apply. The witch was within her rights killing them and then eating was just being responsible and not wasting good meat.

 

[abaddon]

New International Version
"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

New Living Translation
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

English Standard Version
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

New American Standard Bible
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

King James Bible
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm

Those are a few sample translations of the verse in question.

All bear the same basic structure of a verbal command as this sentence:

"If a man speeds in traffic then he has broken a law and shall be written a ticket. Paying for his infraction is his responsibility."

There's no "maybe but maybe not" in the Bible's directive. There's no "God will do it himself eventually" implication in it. "If" and "shall" are not future tense. "If" means don't apply the rule except under the named conditions; but DO apply it under the named conditions. "Shall" is just a variation on "should"; it's an instruction, a command... That is probably familiar from some of the Bible's other commandments, yes?

 

[steve_bank]

Someone who identifies as a biblical theist and does not know Leviticus has no credibility.

Same with someone who may believe the bible as inspired and tries to invalidate a clear moral dictate.

I am not anti gay in any fashion. That being said if you hold the bible as god's word you can not be Christian and gay.

 

[Lion IRC]

I don't need to lift a finger to put anyone to death because;

a) I don't go around looking for gay dudes who are in the act of laying down with each other. (And that verse only says IF two dudes are found to be...you know...in the act.)

b) that verse assures me that the punishment - if needed - will "surely" happen no matter what I think. (No need for me to micro-manage God's prerogatives. (Think of modern day capital punishment. Am I allowed to break into a jail and machine gun to death everyone on death row?)

 

[bilby]

Why bother with the Bible?

If you can interpret the text as meaning whatever you decide it should mean, based on your preexisting beliefs and assumptions, then you could just as well base your beliefs on the Vladivostok telephone directory.

 

[Learner]

Someone who identifies as a biblical theist and does not know Leviticus has no credibility.

Same with someone who may believe the bible as inspired and tries to invalidate a clear moral dictate.

I am not anti gay in any fashion. That being said if you hold the bible as god's word you can not be Christian and gay.

I think non-theists could recognise certain aspects to their own morals finding "surprisingly" similar in relation to Leviticus 18 :1-30 (pick and choosing from the list)

Just a few in the context of why these laws were made.
Leviticus 18:1-30

18 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.

3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

21 Also thou shalt not give thy [m]children to [n]offer them unto [o]Molech, neither shalt thou defile the Name of thy God: for I am the Lord.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled)

28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

 

[Learner]

prt 2...

Might as well post the rest

Leviticus 18:5-16

4 But do after my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein, I am the Lord your God.

5 Ye shall keep therefore my statutes, and my judgments, which if a man do, he shall then live in them: I am the Lord.

6 ¶ None shall come near to any of the kindred of his flesh to [c]uncover her shame: I am the Lord.

7 Thou shalt not uncover the shame of thy father, nor the shame of thy mother, for she is thy mother, thou shalt not discover her shame.

8 The shame of thy father’s [d]wife shalt thou not discover: for it is thy father’s shame.

9 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy [e]sister, the daughter of thy father, or the daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home or born without: thou shalt not discover their shame.

10 The shame of thy son’s daughter, or of thy daughter’s daughter, thou shalt not, I say, uncover their shame: for it is thy [f]shame.

11 The shame of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father (for she is thy sister) thou shalt not, I say, discover her shame.

12 Thou shalt not uncover the [g]shame of thy father’s sister: for she is thy father’s kinswoman.

13 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy mother’s sister: for she is thy mother’s kinswoman.

14 Thou shalt not uncover the shame of thy [h]father’s brother: that is, thou shalt not go in to his wife, for she is thine aunt.

15 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy daughter-in-law: for she is thy son’s wife: therefore shalt thou not uncover her shame.

16 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy [j]brother’s wife: for it is thy brother’s shame.

The context is obvious! What everyone else around the world was doing which was against God.

(And all about sex, so to speak, stemming from the original sin - to defile )

 

[steve_bank]

I would argue that stoning gays or calling them bad people is unbiblical...

The problem is that it is biblical...

Could you help me find the bible verse where a gay person is stoned to death. TIA

Round and round we go. You eiter belive the OT is the word of god or you do not. Some modern Christians say it was a different time, some don't.

There is no such thing as Christianity. With the reformation anyone could read and interpret the bible. A multiplicity of preacers preach their own interpretaions. I've watched Christians on TV argue over which one is the real Christian.Judaism runs from ultra orthodox to liberal accepting gays and female rabbais. Christianity is the same. It is what you want it to be. Keep in mind in the late first and second century Christian groups were often hostile and violent. In the first century belioevers were a heritic Jewsih sect. Over time and thru Paul Christianity gained an identity apart from Jews, and so began the Christian Jewish enmity.

Come again as to what Christian means? You are all followers of a dead Jewish Rabbai.

Buddhism in comparison has a clear set of moral rules.

The closest thing Christians have to a NT derived morality is the Sermon On The Mount and The Lord's Prayer.The only commin thread among Christians is the belief of the account of the ressurection and the divinty of Jesus. Without the belief in the resurection of the faithful Christianity does not exist.

In the NT Paul makes reference to pagan libertine sexuality and homosexuality. Paul also says women should dress plainly, walk behind men, and never instruct men in public. Fornication, sex out of marriage, is forbidden. You can not be Christian biblically if you have sex outside of marriage.

If you actually study the NT Christianuity should be called Paulism. It is his interpretaionn that got passed down.

I suggest reading The Oxford Bible Commentary. Wriiten by an inerfaith group of Christians it discusses each book in detail as to context, errors, and translation issues along with discussion on the texts.

Where does god say abortion is murder?

 

[bilby]

Could you help me find the bible verse where a gay person is stoned to death. TIA

Frontier Troops Museum, Semenovskaya ulitsa 17: 221-80-74

But you must interpret it from a position of faith, of course. And remember to dial +7 4232 if calling from outside the Russian Federation.

 

[Learner]

Where does god say abortion is murder?

Just quickly taking from the ESV. (sorting a few bits)

Galatians 1:15

But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and who called me by his grace,


Jeremiah 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”


Galatians 1:15

But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and who called me by his grace,


Isaiah 49:15

“Can a woman forget her nursing child,
that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.


Isaiah 44:24

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,

 

[steve_bank]

Where does god say abortion is murder?

Just quickly taking from the ESV. (sorting a few bits)

Galatians 1:15

But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and who called me by his grace,


Jeremiah 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”


Galatians 1:15

But when he who had set me apart before I was born,
and who called me by his grace,


Isaiah 49:15

“Can a woman forget her nursing child,
that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb?
Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you.


Isaiah 44:24

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,

I see nothing explicuty stated about abortion. If it were there the conservatives would be shouting it. Interpretation to suit the need. Christian stock and trade.

I'll have to fact check, I believe the ancient Jews alloed induced abortion to a certain point. IOW no late term abortion.

 

[steve_bank]

prt 2...

Might as well post the rest

Leviticus 18:5-16

4 But do after my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein, I am the Lord your God.

5 Ye shall keep therefore my statutes, and my judgments, which if a man do, he shall then live in them: I am the Lord.

6 ¶ None shall come near to any of the kindred of his flesh to [c]uncover her shame: I am the Lord.

7 Thou shalt not uncover the shame of thy father, nor the shame of thy mother, for she is thy mother, thou shalt not discover her shame.

8 The shame of thy father’s [d]wife shalt thou not discover: for it is thy father’s shame.

9 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy [e]sister, the daughter of thy father, or the daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home or born without: thou shalt not discover their shame.

10 The shame of thy son’s daughter, or of thy daughter’s daughter, thou shalt not, I say, uncover their shame: for it is thy [f]shame.

11 The shame of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father (for she is thy sister) thou shalt not, I say, discover her shame.

12 Thou shalt not uncover the [g]shame of thy father’s sister: for she is thy father’s kinswoman.

13 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy mother’s sister: for she is thy mother’s kinswoman.

14 Thou shalt not uncover the shame of thy [h]father’s brother: that is, thou shalt not go in to his wife, for she is thine aunt.

15 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy daughter-in-law: for she is thy son’s wife: therefore shalt thou not uncover her shame.

16 Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy [j]brother’s wife: for it is thy brother’s shame.

The context is obvious! What everyone else around the world was doing which was against God.

(And all about sex, so to speak, stemming from the original sin - to defile )

It is obvious where our twisted cultural sexuality comes from, a sense of self loathing and shame. People get outraged over a woman nursing in public. A pope went around the vatican covered genitals on statues.

God did not give us feathers or head to feet body hair, yet it shameful to be seen naked. No wonder we are all screwed up on sex.

 

[Learner]

It is obvious where our twisted cultural sexuality comes from, a sense of self loathing and shame.

Shame and self-loathing results especially from the extreme sexual perversions. Like those you can get arrested for.

People get outraged over a woman nursing in public. A pope went around the vatican covered genitals on statues.

No problem with it myself and very minor in comparison to the above.

God did not give us feathers or head to feet body hair, yet it shameful to be seen naked. No wonder we are all screwed up on sex

He also didn't introduce us to the extremely addictive twisted cultural sexuality .

( been a busy week ...and reading posts ..may continue when Im wide awake)