Vote suppression -- now we have some evidence of the effects

[Shadowy Man]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/10/voter-suppression-wisconsin-election-2016/

and it's pretty damning. Tens of thousands of people kept away from the polls.

What is wrong with voters bringing some kind of ID to vote?

It's wrong when the government demands this but then doesn't put in a good faith effort to help/allow those without ID to get a qualified voting ID in time for the next election. If the government had put in whatever effort it took to guarantee every citizen have an ID then there'd be nothing wrong, but there are many, many stories of people who have been unable to get ID and many more of people, through no fault of their own, who wouldn't be able to should these laws take effect.

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No, it isn't

and stupid not to keep it up to date.

On the contrary, it is considered by many to be a cornerstone of freedom that one does not have to identify oneself to the authorities if they do not have cause to believe that one has committed a crime

Racism has nothing to with it. Idiocy does.

Racism is a subset of idiocy, and is very obviously a major component of these rules; They are intended to ensure that white conservatives get more of a say in running the country than black liberals - and are put in place by people who don't think black people should have any say at all.

The article mentions one person who had out of date ID and some immediate relatives who appear just as stupid.

There is nothing stupid about not buying something you don't need.

The subject lady let it slip so whose fault is that.

It's not a 'fault' at all - it's a fundamental freedom. Of course, as an authoritarian follower, you likely don't have a very adult concept of what 'freedom' actually means.

Certainly if you think that it entails the government forcing citizens to carry ID on pain of disenfranchisement, you are making a dreadful error.

"Papers, please, Citizen".

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world given the security issues. We need IDs for store purchases or financial transactions with banks. However, honest citizens see no problem identifying themselves. Likewise we wish to minimize the chance of voter fraud incl using live or dead person's votes.

The idea that honest citizens have nothing to fear from mass identity schemes is currently under review by the axioms review board.

The USA has been exercising this since the 1770's. It's called a passport.

Passports aren't required, though, right? Many US Citizens don't have passports and don't get them until they decide to go on foreign travel.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It disenfranchises people who don't have any officially accepted ID. This is not a class of voter whose distribution is uniform across the political spectrum, so the result is to bias the results in favour of the parties and candidates whose supporters are most likely to have an accepted ID.

This is particularly problematic in the US south, but even in other parts of the country it is mainly black people who are unable to vote as a result of these rules; and the detailed implementation of these rules - which forms of ID are and are not considered acceptable - makes very clear that the unstated purpose is to minimise the vote amongst that section of the population.

Or perhaps it's purely coincidental that the effect of rules imposed just happens to burden black people more than it does whites. Just like it's purely coincidental that there are far fewer voting places in black dominated districts, leading to long lines and suppressed turnout.

It's amazing how many rules that have nothing to do with race turn out to completely coincidentally disfavour blacks in the US. If the people making the rules weren't so quick to assure us that it's all purely coincidental, it could almost be mistaken for systemic racism.

Why do liberals presume that black people are not smart enough to get an I.D.?

Smart? We have seen in several states, attempts to make it harder to vote for certain demographics. North Carolina was so obvious based on what type of IDs they'd accept, which indicated which groups of people they were attempt to restrict access to the polls.

The intent is extremely clear, but the response from right-wingers is that... well... they are clearly smart enough to get an ID, it must be the liberals that are racist. Which then leads us back to, why are these restrictions being put in place in the first place? Oh yeah, the "voter fraud" fraud.

 

[Elixir]

The intent is extremely clear...

Yes it is. I am amazed that none of our local voter suppression advocates have the cojones to admit it.

ETA: ""voter fraud" fraud" is exactly right.

 

[Malintent]

Passports aren't required, though, right? Many US Citizens don't have passports and don't get them until they decide to go on foreign travel.

No, not specifically, but they "count" as ID. To get a $13 non-driver ID from the NYS DMV you need 4 "points" of identification... better identification (social security card or birth certificate) counts for a few points, and crappy id such as a piece of mail or non-photo ID / credit card is only 1 point.

Oh, and I was wrong that $13 gets you a 4 year id.. it is 8 years... $9 gets you a 4 year id... less than the cost of a round trip ticket on the subway with a new metro card.

I do also agree with the poster that commented that the government should have taken great effort to subsidize the cost and effort of getting "voter Ids" where they were newly made a requirement.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Passports aren't required, though, right? Many US Citizens don't have passports and don't get them until they decide to go on foreign travel.

No, not specifically, but they "count" as ID. To get a $13 non-driver ID from the NYS DMV you need 4 "points" of identification... better identification (social security card or birth certificate) counts for a few points, and crappy id such as a piece of mail or non-photo ID / credit card is only 1 point.

Oh, and I was wrong that $13 gets you a 4 year id.. it is 8 years... $9 gets you a 4 year id... less than the cost of a round trip ticket on the subway with a new metro card.

I do also agree with the poster that commented that the government should have taken great effort to subsidize the cost and effort of getting "voter Ids" where they were newly made a requirement.

Well yeah, but the difficulty is the whole point. It isn't called voter suppression because they want to help people vote.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Passports aren't required, though, right? Many US Citizens don't have passports and don't get them until they decide to go on foreign travel.

No, not specifically, but they "count" as ID. To get a $13 non-driver ID from the NYS DMV you need 4 "points" of identification... better identification (social security card or birth certificate) counts for a few points, and crappy id such as a piece of mail or non-photo ID / credit card is only 1 point.

Oh, and I was wrong that $13 gets you a 4 year id.. it is 8 years... $9 gets you a 4 year id... less than the cost of a round trip ticket on the subway with a new metro card.

I do also agree with the poster that commented that the government should have taken great effort to subsidize the cost and effort of getting "voter Ids" where they were newly made a requirement.

That was me, too.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In NY state, a non-driver ID issued by the DMV is "legal photo identification" anywhere... costs $13, and is good for 4 years.

It costs more to take public transportation to the voting centers from most of the poor residential places on the outskirts of town.

The so-called $50+ fee is for a driver's license... something only those that can afford to own a car need to maintain.

For many years now it's been possible to vote here with a fairly short walk--no cost but time. We have driven on occasion but because we were out anyway and passing close to one of the early voting stations.

And you're still ignoring the cost of the supporting documents.

I'm going to have to have it out with Social Security--they got my wife's name change, it felt like the guy was being lazy and now I've confirmed it--they just sent her mail under her wrong name. I'm worried we are going to have to get a lawyer involved or see if she can simply live without a state ID. (Utter stupidity: They're not willing to issue the Real-ID compliant IDs without the social security card match--but the passport card is Real-ID compliant and doesn't care about your social security number.)

 

[Copernicus]

It isn't the talking points that bothers me, but the pretense of principle. Voter suppression laws are a purely partisan tactic. Democrats have used gerrymandering and other techniques to gain unfair advantage also, and it wasn't right when they did it. Republicans are the main ones guilty of this today. Let's not engage in false equivalences. The practice is wrong no matter who uses it.

Where did I say it was okay to do it? I merely pointed out that it is griped about from both sides.

No, you did not merely point it out. You pointed it out when nobody was arguing or implying the opposite. What you did was create a straw man, because you do not like it pointed out that the Republican Party is legitimately the focus of the criticism over vote suppression. This is a rhetorical game that we are all familiar with.

Republican myopia over vote suppression tactics has even reached the Supreme Court, where several justices have recently acted as if there were no objective way to detect or prevent gerrymandering. FiveThirtyEight recently pointed out the problem in an article entitled The Supreme Court is Allergic to Math:

This problem was on full display earlier this month, when the Supreme Court heard arguments in Gill v. Whitford, a case that will determine the future of partisan gerrymandering — and the contours of American democracy along with it. As my colleague Galen Druke has reported, the case hinges on math: Is there a way to measure a map’s partisan bias and to create a standard for when a gerrymandered map infringes on voters’ rights?

The metric at the heart of the Wisconsin case is called the efficiency gap. To calculate it, you take the difference between each party’s “wasted” votes — votes for losing candidates and votes for winning candidates beyond what the candidate needed to win — and divide that by the total number of votes cast. It’s mathematical, yes, but quite simple, and aims to measure the extent of partisan gerrymandering.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The USA has been exercising this since the 1770's. It's called a passport.

36% of the US population has a passport.

 

[Jayjay]

So she lost her driver's license just before elections. Unfortunate, but how is that different from, say, failing to cast a vote because her car broke down?

It is different because she was legally prevented from having her vote count by losing her drivers' license due to the change in the law.

And due to the law, she cannot vote from home or on some other day if she can't make it to the polling place on tuesday. I see absolutely no difference. The law should make it easier to vote, but until every person can cast their vote from wherever they are, without any effort or cost, the requirement of needing an ID is fundamentally no different from the requirement to show up in a polling place.

If you really want to fix the vote, do it on a sunday instead of a tuesday. Voting id laws in some states are peanuts compared to that.

 

[RavenSky]

If you have ever lived in a communist country you will realize how important up to date ID is.

The irony of this statement is astounding.

It is, though he won't ever understand why

 

[Shadowy Man]

The law should make it easier to vote...

Then why do so many politicians suggest laws that make it harder? And it's not just IDs. There's early voting cancellations, closure of voting locations, etc. etc.

 

[RavenSky]

An analysis by Media Matters for America found that only 8.9 percent of TV news segments on voting rights from July 2016 to June 2017 “discussed the impact voter suppression laws had on the 2016 election,” while more than 70 percent “were about Trump’s false claims of voter fraud and noncitizen voting.”

In other words, facts (voter suppression) vs fake news (voter fraud)

This country is marching steadily toward fascism

 

[RavenSky]

Are you saying that asking a voter to identify who is, constitutes some kind of wrong? I don't find any unreasonable laws per...

A US citizen should not drive with no driving licence and likewise should have identification to vote.

The issue is not voter registration. The issue is rigged requirements for ADDITIONAL identification on top of the voter registration.

 

[RavenSky]

No, not specifically, but they "count" as ID. To get a $13 non-driver ID from the NYS DMV you need 4 "points" of identification... better identification (social security card or birth certificate) counts for a few points, and crappy id such as a piece of mail or non-photo ID / credit card is only 1 point.

Oh, and I was wrong that $13 gets you a 4 year id.. it is 8 years... $9 gets you a 4 year id... less than the cost of a round trip ticket on the subway with a new metro card.

I do also agree with the poster that commented that the government should have taken great effort to subsidize the cost and effort of getting "voter Ids" where they were newly made a requirement.

Well yeah, but the difficulty is the whole point. It isn't called voter suppression because they want to help people vote.

If states are going to require a specific type of photo ID (especially on top of the voter registration card that is already issued) in order for people to vote, then that state needs to make that ID easily available and free. Otherwise, it is a poll tax.

 

[RavenSky]

A post-election study by Priorities USA, a Democratic super-PAC that supported Clinton, found that in 2016, turnout decreased by 1.7 percent in the three states that adopted stricter voter ID laws but increased by 1.3 percent in states where ID laws did not change.

a report from the Government Accountability Office ...found that strict voter ID laws in Kansas and Tennessee had decreased turnout by roughly 2 to 3 percent, with the largest drops among black, young, and new voters.

According to a comprehensive study by MIT political scientist Charles Stewart, an estimated 16 million people—12 percent of all voters—encountered at least one problem voting in 2016. There were more than 1 million lost votes, Stewart estimates, because people ran into things like ID laws, long lines at the polls, and difficulty registering. Trump won the election by a total of 78,000 votes in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.

(from the article)

That last one is making me sick to my stomach

 

[whichphilosophy]

Well yeah, but the difficulty is the whole point. It isn't called voter suppression because they want to help people vote.

If states are going to require a specific type of photo ID (especially on top of the voter registration card that is already issued) in order for people to vote, then that state needs to make that ID easily available and free. Otherwise, it is a poll tax.

Correct there should be no extra charge for extra ID requirements.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Are you saying that asking a voter to identify who is, constitutes some kind of wrong? I don't find any unreasonable laws per...

A US citizen should not drive with no driving licence and likewise should have identification to vote.

The issue is not voter registration. The issue is rigged requirements for ADDITIONAL identification on top of the voter registration.

There should be identification at no extra cost and exercised with good sense.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The USA has been exercising this since the 1770's. It's called a passport.

36% of the US population has a passport.

It doesn't have to be the sole ID but one form of ID but an important one.

 

[whichphilosophy]

You need ID for a number of reasons.

Stops or reduces:
dead people voting
non-citizens voting
non-existent people voting

And the evidence that any of these are going on? Not assertions or accusations, but evidence. And this is for actual voting, not 'dead people are on the voting rolls', as the voting rolls are not instantaneously updated when someone dies. Someone submitting a bogus voter registration is not voting, unless you can show the registration was accepted and they actually voted under the false identity. My guess would be that even finding 5 cases in the past 20 years would be surprising.

There is no need to have proof of voter fraud to proactively implement preventative methods. In a similar manner we don’t implement anti-terrorist preventative measures only solely on the basis there is proof that terrorist attacks are taking place. However experience of such events taking place would be incorporated into such protections
However It takes a great deal of time to remove the deceased from
https://ballotpedia.org/Dead_people_voting
Where we know of a few dead votes indicates the likelihood of more to be detected and prevented.
The following suggests the possibility of illegal immigrants illegally voting
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/illegal-alien-arrested-charged-voter-fraud
"Our nation's founders reserved the right to vote in this country for U.S. citizens," said Gary Hartwig, special agent in charge of ICE HSI in Chicago. "ICE HSI will work aggressively to investigate and bring to justice anyone who falsely claims to be a U.S. citizen so they can illegally vote in an election."
Also
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...band-from-deportation/?utm_term=.160562180ba6


http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/...gal-immigration-voters-registration-elections

https://fairus.org/issue/societal-impact/noncitizens-voting-violations-and-us-elections

1.8 million people are still on the electoral list. It takes a long time to remove them.
I doubt if millions did, but a few dead people did cast votes

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/14/146827471/study-1-8-million-dead-people-still-registered-to-vote
So to plug these leaks, nothing helps better than proper ID but allow for different valid forms. Not everyone drives or has a passport.

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You need ID for a number of reasons.

Stops or reduces:
dead people voting
non-citizens voting
non-existent people voting

And the evidence that any of these are going on? Not assertions or accusations, but evidence. And this is for actual voting, not 'dead people are on the voting rolls', as the voting rolls are not instantaneously updated when someone dies. Someone submitting a bogus voter registration is not voting, unless you can show the registration was accepted and they actually voted under the false identity. My guess would be that even finding 5 cases in the past 20 years would be surprising.

There is no need to have proof of voter fraud to proactively implement preventative methods. In a similar manner we don’t implement anti-terrorist preventative measures only solely on the basis there is proof that terrorist attacks are taking place. However experience of such events taking place would be incorporated into such protections
However It takes a great deal of time to remove the deceased from electoral roles.

https://ballotpedia.org/Dead_people_voting
Where we know of a few dead votes indicates the likelihood of more to be detected and prevented.
The following suggests the possibility of illegal immigrants illegally voting
https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/illegal-alien-arrested-charged-voter-fraud
"Our nation's founders reserved the right to vote in this country for U.S. citizens," said Gary Hartwig, special agent in charge of ICE HSI in Chicago. "ICE HSI will work aggressively to investigate and bring to justice anyone who falsely claims to be a U.S. citizen so they can illegally vote in an election."
Also
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...band-from-deportation/?utm_term=.160562180ba6


http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/11/...gal-immigration-voters-registration-elections

https://fairus.org/issue/societal-impact/noncitizens-voting-violations-and-us-elections

1.8 million people are still on the electoral list. It takes a long time to remove them.
I doubt if millions did, but a few dead people did cast votes

http://www.npr.org/2012/02/14/146827471/study-1-8-million-dead-people-still-registered-to-vote
So to plug these leaks, nothing helps better than proper ID but allow for different valid forms. Not everyone drives or has a passport.