The Shooting of Alton Sterling

[Loren Pechtel]

You're the one that needs to explain how the physical evidence does not correspond with your story.

- - - Updated - - -

I am interested too, since Mr. Sterling was also shot in the back.

The most likely scenario is the first shot was into the chest. At this time, the second officer released his hold on Sterling. Sterling then thrashed and rolled, taking the additional bullets in his back.

I'm not aware of any evidence as to which shot was first. However, it is pretty clear the guy was rolling--and that implies he wasn't pinned down by the cops.

I guess that depends on your definition of pinned.

I don't consider someone capable of rolling over to be pinned.

- - - Updated - - -

A friend of Alton Sterling says the Baton Rouge man bought a gun for protection only hours before he was shot to death by two white cops outside a convenience store.

“He didn’t have a gun before that,” barber Ronnie Harton, 50, told the Daily News. “He said he had to protect himself, because he had all this money on him. Around this area, you get robbed real quick.”

Sterling bought the weapon on Monday after hearing that another man selling CDs on the local streets was robbed. He died around 12:30 a.m. the next day.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ice-homeless-man-called-911-article-1.2702401

So what? He's a felon, he gave up his right to have a gun.

 

[Derec]

Or you didn't get her fucking point!

Oh I think I did.

 

[laughing dog]

You are correct despite yourself. Glorifying Black Panthers does not exactly show "admiration and respect" for police.

Or you didn't get her fucking point!

Or mine.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Or you didn't get her fucking point!

Oh I think I did.

Not likely, you aren't good with subtle imagery.

 

[repoman]

All cops should be tested for steroids.

Was Sterling up for a 3rd strike for the gun he had on himself?

 

[Derec]

Not likely, you aren't good with subtle imagery.

Nothing subtle about 100 backup dancers dressed as Black Panthers.

 

[RavenSky]

It should be noted that one of these people was killed by Police because they said they were in possession of a gun (legal possession). Had he not said anything, he'd be alive today more than likely. The NRA has nothing to say about that?

As I wrote already, they did issue a brief statement about right to bear arms applying regardless of race.

My point was that RawStory faulted them for not commenting on Alton Sterling either, even though his gun was clearly illegal.

I am quoting the above post here because my response will be focused on Alton Sterling, and I don't want to derail the other thread.

Here is what I find interesting about Derec's continued harping on a convicted felon having a gun (as if that excuses the police officer from killing him) - as near as I can find, Alton Sterling was a convicted felon from a 2000 conviction of unlawful carnal knowledge of a minor - the type of law that Derec vehemently argues against time and time again, including most recently right here wherein the OP was referencing the Alton Sterling conviction: http://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?8646-How-do-you-find-out-what-a-sex-offender-actually-did

Here he is commenting specifically on Alton Sterling, who was 19-years-old at the time:

So he probably was more than 4 years older than the "victim". As to her age, Heavy indicates that she was 14 years old at the time and that he impregnated her. Moral of the story: if you must fuck jailbait, at least wear a condom. Note that one of Alton's sons is 15, about the right age to be conceived in 2000. So is Quinyetta McMillon (the baby mama) the 14 year old in question? Is she 30 today?

Note: I think the section about "Lack of knowledge of the juvenile's age shall not be a defense" should be repealed from all such laws or declared unconstitutional. It is very easy for girls to lie about their age and many do. Many even have fake ids that identify them as older than they are. Thus girls lying about their age should definitely be a defense.

Note the scare quotes around the word "victim" for the woman he demeans as the "baby mama".

Another quote from Derec in that thread:

It may be, it may not be. But it should be allowed as a defense. There is a great deal of look variability, with some 18 year-olds looking 15 and some 15 year olds looking 20 especially when they gussy up. Note that conext is also important. Did he meet her (or she him) at a place where high-schoolers hang out? Or at a bar or a college party?

The idea there is a cadre of under aged nymphets wandering the night, seeking older sex partners, is just not realistic.

Yes, high schoolers never try to look and behave older. There are no high schoolers trying to get into bars and clubs or attend college parties. And minors desiring to engage in and initiate sex is also a biological impossibility. The very idea of kids getting fake ids with an older age is unheard of... It is enough that it applies in some cases where conviction would be an injustice rather than justice. Criminal law should strive toward the latter and avoid former.

Derec regularly argues that black people look older than their age (look at his posts about Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin), and he regularly argues that young women lie about their age. Above he argues that "variability" in looks should be a defense against statutory rape charges, and that minor girls "desir[e] to engage in and initiate sex". Based on those arguments, he concludes that "in some cases... conviction would be an injustice rather than justice." So where is his evidence that Alton Sterling knew or should have know the age of his "baby mama" and/or that she didn't "desir[e] to engage in and initiate sex"?

More to the point, why is Derec arguing against these types of convictions in one thread about Alton Sterling, while using the conviction as a justification to say Alton Sterling shouldn't be allowed to purchase a gun in another?

Note, I am not defending Alton Sterling's behavior with a 14-year old girl, nor commenting either way on statutory rape laws. I will, however, note that Alton Sterling was clearly involved in the lives of all 5 of his children and their mothers. He obviously wasn't hooking up with 14-year-olds for one-night-stands - the woman Derec presumes is the 14-year-old in question has been all over the news defending Alton Sterling as a good man and a good father. Derec can argue that characterization all he wants (and I'm sure he will because it doesn't fit Derec's narrative of Alton Sterling as a big bad black scary guy who didn't deserve to live), but Derec can not argue with hypocrisy that Sterling Alton is exactly the type of man Derec thinks should not have been convicted of the felony sex crime.

So now the gun purchase. I have not yet seen published details about where/how Alton Sterling bought his gun. I've only seen reports that it was a very recent purchase prompted by the robbery from another street seller a week or so earlier.

What I have been able to find, though, is that Louisiana's gun laws are incredibly lax:

There are a lot of things that Louisiana doesn't require of gun purchasers, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence. If a Louisiana resident wants to purchase a gun, for example, he or she only needs to present a driver's license to prove age. No background checks or gun permits are needed if the buyer doesn't plan on carrying it in public. Furthermore, gun dealers can sell firearms with no license and are not required to keep a record of what they sell to whom. Additionally, residents over the age of 21 can buy as many firearms as they please, even in the same day. Lastly, there is currently no regulations imposed on high capacity magazines, ammunition, or guns in the workplace.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/1710...alton-sterling-was-shot-in-the-states-capital

It is entirely probable that Alton Sterling walked into a local gun shop and bought his gun legally. He may not have been legally allowed to own/carry a gun because of the conviction Derec argues against the justice of, but I want to make that distinct from Alton Sterling's ability to walk into a gun shop and legally purchase a gun without any type of background check.

Because Alton Sterling's background also includes arrests and convictions for battery, including domestic assault. Those - to me - are more of a red flag than the conviction Derec simultaneously points to and argues against. Obviously, we don't have any more detail about these than we do about the exact circumstances of the statutory rape conviction, but a history of violence (if true) is what should bar someone from purchasing a gun. Louisiana doesn't check for any of it.

Final note: all of the above is completely separate from the fact that Alton Sterling was entitled to due process, and should not have been shot to death in the street by a police officer.

 

[laughing dog]

Not likely, you aren't good with subtle imagery.

Nothing subtle about 100 backup dancers dressed as Black Panthers.

Nor the fear-mongering and bias in your responses.

 

[Derec]

Here is what I find interesting about Derec's continued harping on a convicted felon having a gun (as if that excuses the police officer from killing him) - as near as I can find, Alton Sterling was a convicted felon from a 2000 conviction of unlawful carnal knowledge of a minor - the type of law that Derec vehemently argues against time and time again, including most recently right here wherein the OP was referencing the Alton Sterling conviction

There are many things going on here. I generally think these laws are too harsh. I think age of consent should be 16, not 18. But this girl was 14 and the age difference (5 years) was significant. So I do not think that their relationship being against the law is wrong, but I think the penalty was too harsh, especially the lifelong sex offender registration.

All that said, it's still up to him to follow any restrictions placed upon him. He knew he was not supposed to have a gun. He still got one. He threatened a homeless guy with it, apparently only a short time after getting it in the first place. And he resisted arrest. So, in the context of the post you were replying to, why should NRA issue any statement on his behalf.
Note that the "carnal knowledge" conviction is not the only one on his record. Most notably, there are a few illegal possession of a weapon (including one case where he resisted arrest whole carrying). a couple of burglaries, batteries etc. He would not be allowed to have a gun even if he never knocked up that 14 year old.

Note the scare quotes around the word "victim"

They had an ongoing sexual relationship. I do not think that was right, but I do not think she was a victim either.

for the woman he demeans as the "baby mama".

I do not demean her. That is a common colloquialism for a mother of one's child one is not married to.

Another quote from Derec in that thread:

Derec regularly argues that black people look older than their age (look at his posts about Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin),

I never said "black people look older than their age". I only said particular people do. Tamir Rice did look older than his age because he was 5'7" and 195 lbs which are pretty adult proportions. I never said Trayvon Martin looked older than 17 though; the contention there is the media using old photos where he was 13 or 14 years old, in an attempt to make him more childlike than he was.

So where is his evidence that Alton Sterling knew or should have know the age of his "baby mama" and/or that she didn't "desir[e] to engage in and initiate sex"?

They had an ongoing relationship that lasted months. Also, the "lack of knowledge" would be an affirmative defense.

More to the point, why is Derec arguing against these types of convictions in one thread about Alton Sterling, while using the conviction as a justification to say Alton Sterling shouldn't be allowed to purchase a gun in another?

Even if he never knocked that girl up, or managed to plead it down to a misdemeanor, he would still not be eligible to have a gun on account of his other convictions for things like burglary, battery, etc.
This site has his criminal record.

9/09/96 aggravated battery
10/31/97 2nd degree battery
1/06/98 simple battery
5/04/00 public intimidation
9/20/00 carnal knowledge of a juvenile
9/04/01 domestic violence
5/24/05 burglary of an inhabited dwelling place
7/11/05 receiving stolen things
9/12/05 burglary of inhabited dwelling place
3/17/06 simple criminal damage to property, simple robbery, simple theft, drug possession, misrepresentation during booking, simple battery, aggravated battery
4/12/06 aggravated battery, simple criminal damage to property, disturbing the peace, unauthorized entry
4/04/08 domestic abuse battery
6/03/09 resisting an officer, drug possession, receiving stolen things, possession of stolen firearm, illegal carrying of a weapon with CDs, sound reproduct without consent
10/12/09 illegal carrying of weapon, marijuana possession
8/13/15 failure to register as a sex offender
4/08/16 failure to register as a sex offender
6/14/16 ecstacy and marijuana possession

Note that the three cases of battery happened before 2000, i.e. before the "carnal knowledge" case. It probably influenced his sentence in that case too.

Note, I am not defending Alton Sterling's behavior with a 14-year old girl, nor commenting either way on statutory rape laws.

But you do pretend that that was the only wrong thing he did.

I will, however, note that Alton Sterling was clearly involved in the lives of all 5 of his children and their mothers.

Well between times when he was locked up. The reason there is nothing on his record between 2009 and 2015 is because he was in prison for 5 years. He fought the law since the age of 15.

He obviously wasn't hooking up with 14-year-olds for one-night-stands - the woman Derec presumes is the 14-year-old in question has been all over the news defending Alton Sterling as a good man and a good father.

Do you disagree with that presumption? The math works out and she looks to be around 30.

Derec can argue that characterization all he wants (and I'm sure he will because it doesn't fit Derec's narrative of Alton Sterling as a big bad black scary guy who didn't deserve to live), but Derec can not argue with hypocrisy that Sterling Alton is exactly the type of man Derec thinks should not have been convicted of the felony sex crime.

Look at his other criminal history. If his relationship with the 14 year old was the only thing I think it should have been a misdemeanor with ability to get removed from the registry in 5 years.
And I did not say he didn't deserve to live. But if arrested he faxed being sent back to prison, which is why he resisted. He did it once before, but this time it ended badly for him.

So now the gun purchase. I have not yet seen published details about where/how Alton Sterling bought his gun. I've only seen reports that it was a very recent purchase prompted by the robbery from another street seller a week or so earlier.

I am sure that he knew people selling hot guns. He spend time in prison quite recently.

Because Alton Sterling's background also includes arrests and convictions for battery, including domestic assault.

Finally she realizes her harping on the 'carnal knowledge' think was a red herring. He also has convictions for burglary, drugs etc.

Final note: all of the above is completely separate from the fact that Alton Sterling was entitled to due process, and should not have been shot to death in the street by a police officer.

He resisted arrest. That greatly increases the chances of something going wrong. Especially when the perp is armed. Note that he did almost exactly mirrors what he did in 2009.

 

[laughing dog]

I do not demean her. That is a common colloquialism for a mother of one's child one is not married to.

The term "baby mama" usually has a negative connotation (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baby%20mama). You are not fooling anyone.

 

[Toni]

There are many things going on here. I generally think these laws are too harsh. I think age of consent should be 16, not 18. But this girl was 14 and the age difference (5 years) was significant. So I do not think that their relationship being against the law is wrong, but I think the penalty was too harsh, especially the lifelong sex offender registration.

All that said, it's still up to him to follow any restrictions placed upon him. He knew he was not supposed to have a gun. He still got one. He threatened a homeless guy with it, apparently only a short time after getting it in the first place. And he resisted arrest. So, in the context of the post you were replying to, why should NRA issue any statement on his behalf.
Note that the "carnal knowledge" conviction is not the only one on his record. Most notably, there are a few illegal possession of a weapon (including one case where he resisted arrest whole carrying). a couple of burglaries, batteries etc. He would not be allowed to have a gun even if he never knocked up that 14 year old.

Note the scare quotes around the word "victim"

They had an ongoing sexual relationship. I do not think that was right, but I do not think she was a victim either.

for the woman he demeans as the "baby mama".

I do not demean her. That is a common colloquialism for a mother of one's child one is not married to.

Another quote from Derec in that thread:

Derec regularly argues that black people look older than their age (look at his posts about Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin),

I never said "black people look older than their age". I only said particular people do. Tamir Rice did look older than his age because he was 5'7" and 195 lbs which are pretty adult proportions. I never said Trayvon Martin looked older than 17 though; the contention there is the media using old photos where he was 13 or 14 years old, in an attempt to make him more childlike than he was.

So where is his evidence that Alton Sterling knew or should have know the age of his "baby mama" and/or that she didn't "desir[e] to engage in and initiate sex"?

They had an ongoing relationship that lasted months. Also, the "lack of knowledge" would be an affirmative defense.

More to the point, why is Derec arguing against these types of convictions in one thread about Alton Sterling, while using the conviction as a justification to say Alton Sterling shouldn't be allowed to purchase a gun in another?

Even if he never knocked that girl up, or managed to plead it down to a misdemeanor, he would still not be eligible to have a gun on account of his other convictions for things like burglary, battery, etc.
This site has his criminal record.

9/09/96 aggravated battery
10/31/97 2nd degree battery
1/06/98 simple battery
5/04/00 public intimidation
9/20/00 carnal knowledge of a juvenile
9/04/01 domestic violence
5/24/05 burglary of an inhabited dwelling place
7/11/05 receiving stolen things
9/12/05 burglary of inhabited dwelling place
3/17/06 simple criminal damage to property, simple robbery, simple theft, drug possession, misrepresentation during booking, simple battery, aggravated battery
4/12/06 aggravated battery, simple criminal damage to property, disturbing the peace, unauthorized entry
4/04/08 domestic abuse battery
6/03/09 resisting an officer, drug possession, receiving stolen things, possession of stolen firearm, illegal carrying of a weapon with CDs, sound reproduct without consent
10/12/09 illegal carrying of weapon, marijuana possession
8/13/15 failure to register as a sex offender
4/08/16 failure to register as a sex offender
6/14/16 ecstacy and marijuana possession

Note that the three cases of battery happened before 2000, i.e. before the "carnal knowledge" case. It probably influenced his sentence in that case too.

Note, I am not defending Alton Sterling's behavior with a 14-year old girl, nor commenting either way on statutory rape laws.

But you do pretend that that was the only wrong thing he did.

I will, however, note that Alton Sterling was clearly involved in the lives of all 5 of his children and their mothers.

Well between times when he was locked up. The reason there is nothing on his record between 2009 and 2015 is because he was in prison for 5 years. He fought the law since the age of 15.

He obviously wasn't hooking up with 14-year-olds for one-night-stands - the woman Derec presumes is the 14-year-old in question has been all over the news defending Alton Sterling as a good man and a good father.

Do you disagree with that presumption? The math works out and she looks to be around 30.

Derec can argue that characterization all he wants (and I'm sure he will because it doesn't fit Derec's narrative of Alton Sterling as a big bad black scary guy who didn't deserve to live), but Derec can not argue with hypocrisy that Sterling Alton is exactly the type of man Derec thinks should not have been convicted of the felony sex crime.

Look at his other criminal history. If his relationship with the 14 year old was the only thing I think it should have been a misdemeanor with ability to get removed from the registry in 5 years.
And I did not say he didn't deserve to live. But if arrested he faxed being sent back to prison, which is why he resisted. He did it once before, but this time it ended badly for him.

So now the gun purchase. I have not yet seen published details about where/how Alton Sterling bought his gun. I've only seen reports that it was a very recent purchase prompted by the robbery from another street seller a week or so earlier.

I am sure that he knew people selling hot guns. He spend time in prison quite recently.

Because Alton Sterling's background also includes arrests and convictions for battery, including domestic assault.

Finally she realizes her harping on the 'carnal knowledge' think was a red herring. He also has convictions for burglary, drugs etc.

Final note: all of the above is completely separate from the fact that Alton Sterling was entitled to due process, and should not have been shot to death in the street by a police officer.

He resisted arrest. That greatly increases the chances of something going wrong. Especially when the perp is armed. Note that he did almost exactly mirrors what he did in 2009.

There is absolutely nothing that Sterling did that justified being shot in the chest multiple times by a police officer while being held down on the ground and restrained by police officers. Nothing.

 

[Derec]

There is absolutely nothing that Sterling did that justified being shot in the chest multiple times by a police officer while being held down on the ground and restrained by police officers. Nothing.

Let's assume the shooting was not justified (far from clear). My point still stands that resisting arrest while armed greatly increases chances of things going wrong.
If you are armed police will perceive you as a threat and have an itchy trigger finger while struggling with you. Even if they do not shoot you though, tasing and physical restraining is not without risk itself. People have died after being tased for example.
In any case, he should not have resisted. Can we at least agree on that?

 

[Derec]

The term "baby mama" usually has a negative connotation (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baby%20mama). You are not fooling anyone.

The very first entry there is quite neutral and describes Quinyetta McMillon quite well - she is the mother of Sterling's child and is not married to him nor were they dating at the time of his death. No fooling involved.

 

[untermensche]

Another thread examining the pathological lack of empathy in some people.

 

[thebeave]

Another thread examining the pathological lack of empathy in some people.

That's not a nice thing to say about Alton Sterling.

 

[laughing dog]

The term "baby mama" usually has a negative connotation (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baby%20mama). You are not fooling anyone.

The very first entry there is quite neutral and describes Quinyetta McMillon quite well - she is the mother of Sterling's child and is not married to him nor were they dating at the time of his death. No fooling involved.

From the link

A term used to define an unmarried young woman (but can be a woman of any age) who has had a child. As mentioned before in another definition, most of the time it is used for when it was simply a sexual relationship, compared to ex-wife or girlfriend. Usually this has a negative connotation, a lot of baby mamas are seen as desperate, gold digging, emotionally starved, shady women who had a baby out of spite or to keep a man. Sometimes they may act like this because of missed child support payments, unfulfilled promises by the father, or convenient sex by the father. Either or both may exist in any situation.

. You are not fooling anyone.

 

[untermensche]

Another thread examining the pathological lack of empathy in some people.

That's not a nice thing to say about Alton Sterling.

Only the living can have empathy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It is entirely probable that Alton Sterling walked into a local gun shop and bought his gun legally. He may not have been legally allowed to own/carry a gun because of the conviction Derec argues against the justice of, but I want to make that distinct from Alton Sterling's ability to walk into a gun shop and legally purchase a gun without any type of background check.

You're going to get a background check in any gun shop!

 

[fast]

There is absolutely nothing that Sterling did that justified being shot in the chest multiple times by a police officer while being held down on the ground and restrained by police officers. Nothing.

Let's assume the shooting was not justified (far from clear). My point still stands that resisting arrest while armed greatly increases chances of things going wrong.
If you are armed police will perceive you as a threat and have an itchy trigger finger while struggling with you. Even if they do not shoot you though, tasing and physical restraining is not without risk itself. People have died after being tased for example.
In any case, he should not have resisted. Can we at least agree on that?

There is agreement, but it's unlikely to be outwardly verbalized. If one cannot comfortably compartmentalize, then one might feel as though acknowledgement of truths is some kind of betrayal. For instance, one may refrain from speaking positively about something a bad leader does well, not because they disagree that the leader does it well but because of the bad things the leader has done.

If a moment is taken to discuss a very particular issue, such as whether he should have or should not have resisted, and if the people discussing the very particular issue isn't comfortable compartmentalizing, what you can expect is a deflection from the very particular issue at hand; that's when you'll get responses declaring how irrelevant that is to something else, like whether the action of the police officer was or was not justified.

 

[Toni]

Well he wasn't shot for selling CDs. He was shot because he resisted and police thought he could shoot them with his gun. I am sure you could find instances of police shooting an armed suspect who resisted.

They shot him while laying face first into the ground with two officers atop him.

One of the only actually known parts of this shooting, and you seem to waltz right past it.

With his head turned in the opposite direction, eyes both averted and shielded from unpleasant things..