Great news! Over 20 dead in Orlando Night Club!

[Trausti]

Nothing to do with Islam.

Curious, what is the source of people that loudly support Trump's plan to kill family members of ISIS and terrorists? Dancing and Rock 'n Roll were considered anti-Christian in the 50's and 60's in the US. Today, not so much. Slavery was both condoned and condemned by the Bible, depending on who you asked. Did Christianity (the Bible) change or did the people evolve?

Yes, there are Muslims who are quite bent on hating the US and use their religion to justify the hate and violence.

Buddhism is extraordinarily anti-violence, yet even that has been used by some to justify the unjustifiable.

The objection to your and others wanting to blame this on "Islam" is that the source of the conflict is the people who want to use something to justify what they want to believe. No one raised Dylan Roof's religion when he massacred people who involved him in their religious study. In fact, the religion of white mass murderers is almost never raised.

Perhaps because when Roof said his motivation was to start a race war, people didn't doubt him. But when a Muslim openly attributes his bad behavior to Islam, well, then the Western paternalistic liberal steps in and says "you don't know your religion as well as I do." I guess that's White Privilege for you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Perhaps because when Roof said his motivation was to start a race war...

And the basis of white superiority has no foundation from religion?

But when a Muslim openly attributes his bad behavior to Islam, well, then the Western paternalistic liberal steps in and says "you don't know your religion as well as I do." I guess that's White Privilege for you.

Last time I checked, he didn't release a paper that explained how the Qu'ran supported his actions. Saying that his faith was the justification for a massacre doesn't make it true... in the sense that the religion of Islam supports his actions. Otherwise Muslims through out the US would be committing massacres every other day. That the unbelievably large majority of Muslims in the US aren't waging a holy war for Islam in the US would imply that the massacre was not actually Islam approved.

What I also find interesting about your statement is that when other Muslims say what he did was not Islam, you don't seem to give a darn about what those Muslims say.

 

[RavenSky]

As much as I am for gun control, this case is not about gun control. Determined terrorist will find a way to kill a lot of people regardless of gun control.

Determined KILLERS will find a way to kill people regardless of gun control, but that doesn't mean we should not restrict guns - especially the favorite of these killers: the AR-15. This goes for Muslim radicals, Christian radicals, and non-religious misfits.

When your "determined terrorists" are smuggling guns in from Canada to shoot up nightclubs in Florida, then we can discuss the problem of "determined terrorists". Right now, the common denominator is too easy access to guns.

 

[Trausti]

And the basis of white superiority has no foundation from religion?

But when a Muslim openly attributes his bad behavior to Islam, well, then the Western paternalistic liberal steps in and says "you don't know your religion as well as I do." I guess that's White Privilege for you.

Last time I checked, he didn't release a paper that explained how the Qu'ran supported his actions. Saying that his faith was the justification for a massacre doesn't make it true... in the sense that the religion of Islam supports his actions. Otherwise Muslims through out the US would be committing massacres every other day. That the unbelievably large majority of Muslims in the US aren't waging a holy war for Islam in the US would imply that the massacre was not actually Islam approved.

Eh, no one second guesses a white guy when he gives his motivation for bad behavior. This guy, this Orlando shooter, calls 911 right before the start of the massacre and explains, this is why I'm doing this. But no, can't take his word for it.

 

[jab]

You have a hidden assumption here: that guns don't have an upside.

In practice the number of people who die in these big newsworthy events is far less than the number who are saved by guns. It's just the press doesn't like reporting such things unless the shooting is questionable.

To get rid of the mass shootings would get rid of the defensive uses also--and that's a net loss for society.

So, you have a source for that information?

Yes--the higher proportion of gun deaths in every single country that has tighter gun laws than the USA. You know, in those countries there just aren't as many "good guys" with guns around to kill the bad guys when they start shooting or to wing a toddler before he or she does something fatal with an accidentally picked up gun.
As a gay man, it is sickening to me to see how gun nuts and apologists for Islamic-inspired violence are using this tragedy to merrily ride their own fantastic hobbyhorses. :sick001: A pox on both your houses.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And the basis of white superiority has no foundation from religion?
Last time I checked, he didn't release a paper that explained how the Qu'ran supported his actions. Saying that his faith was the justification for a massacre doesn't make it true... in the sense that the religion of Islam supports his actions. Otherwise Muslims through out the US would be committing massacres every other day. That the unbelievably large majority of Muslims in the US aren't waging a holy war for Islam in the US would imply that the massacre was not actually Islam approved.

Eh, no one second guesses a white guy when he gives his motivation for bad behavior. This guy, this Orlando shooter, calls 911 right before the start of the massacre and explains, this is why I'm doing this. But no, can't take his word for it.

I'm sorry, you must have accidentally quoted my post when posting because you didn't address a single point I made in it, instead just repeating yourself. I never said I doubted why the guy said he did what he did. However, because you want to blame Islam enmasse, the question becomes is his understanding of Islam correct. He never gives one. And the majority of Muslims in the United States would say the killer's actions were not within the bounds of the Islamic faith.

So why is this guy's words about Islam and ISIS so much more authoritative as to what Islam is, than say the couple of million of Muslims that outnumber him?

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And the basis of white superiority has no foundation from religion?
Last time I checked, he didn't release a paper that explained how the Qu'ran supported his actions. Saying that his faith was the justification for a massacre doesn't make it true... in the sense that the religion of Islam supports his actions. Otherwise Muslims through out the US would be committing massacres every other day. That the unbelievably large majority of Muslims in the US aren't waging a holy war for Islam in the US would imply that the massacre was not actually Islam approved.

Eh, no one second guesses a white guy when he gives his motivation for bad behavior. This guy, this Orlando shooter, calls 911 right before the start of the massacre and explains, this is why I'm doing this. But no, can't take his word for it.

I'm sorry, you must have accidentally quoted my post when posting because you didn't address a single point I made in it, instead just repeating yourself. I never said I doubted why the guy said he did what he did. However, because you want to blame Islam enmasse, the question becomes is his understanding of Islam correct. He never gives one. And the majority of Muslims in the United States would say the killer's actions were not within the bounds of the Islamic faith.

So why is this guy's words about Islam and ISIS so much more authoritative as to what Islam is, than say the couple of million of Muslims that outnumber him?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So, you have a source for that information?

Yes--the higher proportion of gun deaths in every single country that has tighter gun laws than the USA. You know, in those countries there just aren't as many "good guys" with guns around to kill the bad guys when they start shooting or to wing a toddler before he or she does something fatal with an accidentally picked up gun.
As a gay man, it is sickening to me to see how gun nuts and apologists for Islamic-inspired violence are using this tragedy to merrily ride their own fantastic hobbyhorses. :sick001: A pox on both your houses.

If it makes you feel any better, had the room been filled with 100 Republicans instead, I'd still of thought semi-auto weapons that can kill so many, so quickly shouldn't be allowed in the hands of civilians. I'm just, in general, against such weapons because it makes crimes of this level of horror possible. Sure, ten dead people would have been terrible, but a hand gun is easier to attack when you have numbers.

 

[laughing dog]

Perhaps because when Roof said his motivation was to start a race war, people didn't doubt him. But when a Muslim openly attributes his bad behavior to Islam, well, then the Western paternalistic liberal steps in and says "you don't know your religion as well as I do." I guess that's White Privilege for you.

In order for your post to be relevant to this situation, you need to cite where this murderer openly attributes his killings to Islam.

Let's suppose he does attribute his behavior to Islam. So what?

 

[blastula]

Huh? It happened at 2am this morning.

I see, it happened 2am and 6 hour later at 8am local time thread was started. Still people from Europe (me included) could have started it earlier.

Clearly, we have all failed.

Failed at what, I'm not sure.

 

[PyramidHead]

Perhaps because when Roof said his motivation was to start a race war, people didn't doubt him. But when a Muslim openly attributes his bad behavior to Islam, well, then the Western paternalistic liberal steps in and says "you don't know your religion as well as I do." I guess that's White Privilege for you.

In order for your post to be relevant to this situation, you need to cite where this murderer openly attributes his killings to Islam.

* Mateen called 911 during the attack to pledge allegiance to ISIS and mentioned the Boston Marathon bombers, according to a U.S. official.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

Unless he swore allegiance to the Islamic State apropos of nothing, and happened to dislike gay people for reasons unrelated to what the Koran says about them, this looks like a pretty clear case of religious terrorism.

Let's suppose he does attribute his behavior to Islam. So what?

This is the better question. I don't know what can or should be done, but acknowledging it is certainly a first step.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In order for your post to be relevant to this situation, you need to cite where this murderer openly attributes his killings to Islam.

* Mateen called 911 during the attack to pledge allegiance to ISIS and mentioned the Boston Marathon bombers, according to a U.S. official.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

Unless he swore allegiance to the Islamic State apropos of nothing, and happened to dislike gay people for reasons unrelated to what the Koran says about them, this looks like a pretty clear case of religious terrorism.

Let's suppose he does attribute his behavior to Islam. So what?

This is the better question. I don't know what can or should be done, but acknowledging it is certainly a first step.

An accurate point, though I suppose ld may not disagree with it, either. There is a war and the Trumpets are fighting it on the airwaves. Meanwhile Islamic leaders are trying like heck to fight it online. The Internet is the recruitment field for ISIS and those trying to support ISIS. Leaders are trying to counteract the online presence of the propaganda that tries to convince younger Muslims that there is a holy war and it is their job as a Muslim to murder. Defeating ISIS is more about winning online than anywhere else.

 

[RavenSky]

Let's suppose he does attribute his behavior to Islam. So what?

This is the better question. I don't know what can or should be done, but acknowledging it is certainly a first step.

A "first step" to what?

Whether he pledged his allegiance to various conflicting Islamic organization or to a christian god/organization or to nothing at all, what difference does it make? What "first step" is it, and what's the second step?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is the better question. I don't know what can or should be done, but acknowledging it is certainly a first step.

A "first step" to what?

Whether he pledged his allegiance to various conflicting Islamic organization or to a christian god/organization or to nothing at all, what difference does it make? What "first step" is it, and what's the second step?

If Islam is being used as a technique to convince younger Muslims to kill people via the Internet (it is), one of the ways of preventing this violence is to drown out the online propaganda and expose it for what it truly is (which is something that is being attempted).

ISIS and such groups don't promote themselves by saying "Join ISIS, we like to destroy ancient antiquities!"

 

[arkirk]

I saw that a day or so ago, and have been thinking about it all day.

Forgive the metaphor, but the NRA did not hold a gun to anyone's head. It's the American Congress and every single legislator who votes against gun control that is the problem.

Obama is CONSISTENT (not necessarily right) in his not wanting to take away guns. The pot has to be careful to give to the kettle all the same lethal "rights" he exercises on a global scale with his drones. The calculus of terror is the same whether it is our president or some nut attacking a gay nightclub. The idea is that the killing will serve a political purpose...make someone somewhere react in fear and begin to allow fear to rule their lives. We are at such a crossroads in our electoral process...only allowed a choice of two very violence prone candidates for president. Looks like this terrorism stuff works for those who use it. It is only an illusion however because we really can't see past the curtains people start to draw when they see the violence. Human beings are able to be extremely dishonest and have no problem with killing each other if they don't have to get too close to where the killing happens. That appears to be a given. I believe we have been conditioned to accept violence as the means of eliminating problems we face without really understanding that violence is a human failing and it is retrogressive and without actual positive value...ever. That is not saying that it does not sometimes have to happen. It is saying that frequent dependence on violence can only lead to tragedies like the current middle east with lots of spillage of blood and only regression back into ever more primitive forms of violence...

"We" smack down our foes then smartly insult the remnants of our adversaries and then are surprised when they show up with something to make "us" pay. It really is not surprising at all if you understand the calculus that precedes the action. It is the same on both sides...both the pot and the kettle.

 

[RavenSky]

A "first step" to what?

Whether he pledged his allegiance to various conflicting Islamic organization or to a christian god/organization or to nothing at all, what difference does it make? What "first step" is it, and what's the second step?

If Islam is being used as a technique to convince younger Muslims to kill people via the Internet (it is), one of the ways of preventing this violence is to drown out the online propaganda and expose it for what it truly is (which is something that is being attempted).

ISIS and such groups don't promote themselves by saying "Join ISIS, we like to destroy ancient antiquities!"

OK, and this would stop Adam Lanza? Dylann Roof?

I'm not suggesting your suggestion isn't valid, but why is this a "first step" to stopping mass killings in the U.S.?

 

[TSwizzle]

It has been reported he used steroids too. That probably played a part in it too.

 

[RavenSky]

as an aside, does anyone know the meaning behind #preyfororlando

It's not a misspelling.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It has been reported he used steroids too. That probably played a part in it too.

...and that he was male.

 

[TSwizzle]

It has been reported he used steroids too. That probably played a part in it too.

...and that he was male.

FFS, give it a rest will you.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

as an aside, does anyone know the meaning behind #preyfororlando

It's not a misspelling.

Justin Bieber was "prey" for Orlando Bloom?
https://twitter.com/F_LancasterXx/status/495568769390247936

Recently people thought it was a typo and have been using it as prayforOrlando after this incident.

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...and that he was male.

FFS, give it a rest will you.

Why? The vast majority of terrorists are male. Get your head out of the sand.