Greece, what the fuck?

[ksen]

It doesn't take unlimited funds. It takes sufficient funds. And it takes actual Keynesian spending. And tax increases on those most able to pay.

It is the best way to get the money back.

How much funds? How many billions more are required? How much should they be allowed to increase pensions and public service salaries? How many people should the government be able to keep on payroll until the depression suddenly ends?

Are you willing to contribute some of your own funds to help Greece spend its way out of the depression?

And here's where the flailing and desperation starts to set in.

 

[Jayjay]

Anyone care to speculate on significance of Varoufakis's resignation? He did say before the referendum that he'd resign if Yes votes win, so it is a bit surprising that he quit regardless.

He has a book deal he needs to get after.

Right, a book deal. Because that's where the real money is.

To me it sounds more like a good cop - bad cop routine, where the bad cop has just thrown a chair across the room and the good cop sends him out to cool off. "Now that guy was batshit crazy, but I think you and I can cut a deal..."

 

[Axulus]

It doesn't take unlimited funds. It takes sufficient funds. And it takes actual Keynesian spending. And tax increases on those most able to pay.

It is the best way to get the money back.

Actual Keynesianism would call for more government spending and tax cuts during downtimes to be offset by less government spending and tax increases during uptimes.

Yes, but to spend one must have cash in their account. How is Greece supposed to get all these billions of cash in their account in order to spend Keynesian style?

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How much funds? How many billions more are required? How much should they be allowed to increase pensions and public service salaries? How many people should the government be able to keep on payroll until the depression suddenly ends?

Are you willing to contribute some of your own funds to help Greece spend its way out of the depression?

And here's where the flailing and desperation starts to set in.

It's a fact of life that in order to spend one must actually have the cash first. It doesn't happen by magic.

 

[dismal]

It doesn't take unlimited funds. It takes sufficient funds. And it takes actual Keynesian spending. And tax increases on those most able to pay.

It is the best way to get the money back.

Actual Keynesianism would call for more government spending and tax cuts during downtimes to be offset by less government spending and tax increases during uptimes.

So what does Keynes say to do if your sprawling cronyist government and rampant corruption prevent you from ever having uptimes?

 

[Axulus]

Actual Keynesianism would call for more government spending and tax cuts during downtimes to be offset by less government spending and tax increases during uptimes.

So what does Keynes say to do if your sprawling cronyist government and rampant corruption prevent you from ever having uptimes?

Or what does Keynes recommend when the cash in your account is empty and no one will lend you more?

 

[ksen]

Actual Keynesianism would call for more government spending and tax cuts during downtimes to be offset by less government spending and tax increases during uptimes.

Yes, but to spend one must have cash in their account. How is Greece supposed to get all these billions of cash in their account in order to spend Keynesian style?

Normally a country would either sell bonds or if that wasn't an option just print the money. A sovereign nation will never be without cash in their account. Which is why Greece is having a lot of difficulty managing their down economy since they gave up control over the only means to fight it and made themselves overly dependent upon others.

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How much funds? How many billions more are required? How much should they be allowed to increase pensions and public service salaries? How many people should the government be able to keep on payroll until the depression suddenly ends?

Are you willing to contribute some of your own funds to help Greece spend its way out of the depression?

And here's where the flailing and desperation starts to set in.

It's a fact of life that in order to spend one must actually have the cash first. It doesn't happen by magic.

Missed this one:

Sovereign nations in control of their own currencies don't run out of cash . . . ever.

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Actual Keynesianism would call for more government spending and tax cuts during downtimes to be offset by less government spending and tax increases during uptimes.

So what does Keynes say to do if your sprawling cronyist government and rampant corruption prevent you from ever having uptimes?

He'd probably say, "kick those Rightists out of your government."

But I might be projecting.

 

[arkirk]

I want the banks to attach conditions that will cause the Greek economy to grow so it can better pay it's debts as opposed to the destructive conditions that the banks have attached in the past that have driven the Greek economy to ruin.

Greece led itself to ruin through reckless fiscal policies. The role the banks played were incidental. You blame them for not giving Greece unlimited loans that would supposedly allow them to spend their way out (while others, in pure contradictory fashion, blame the banks for giving the Greece too many loans).

The conditions attached essentially limited the amount of loans that would come to Greece. Without them, Greece would've defaulted anyway unless they could continue to borrow unlimited amounts.

You also seem to be confusing the troika for "banks". The banks already took their haircut in 2010.

You are talking about a country that was taken over by Technocrats and run for a period of time contrary to anything we could call a democracy. The people had no say in the loans either borrowing or deciding how to spend them Democracy was not present and what was done was done by people who did not consult the people. They just did as they pleased....very similar to the way Obama conducts his wars. Democracy is not involved. I feel that has rendered a lot of the financial agreements illegitimate.

You feel you have the right to talk about Greece and its profligate spending...when you really know nothing about Greece at all. Greece has been run by the financial class for a long time. That is why it has 25% unemployment (up to 50% in the under 25 y.o. class)...no money to pay salaries. That is why it has early retirement...not enough jobs are created by people who really don't care about anything but their bottom line...and in the case of Greece, these people also are not even Greek. To some degree, the problem is both inside and outside Greece, but regardless of where it is most serious, the Greek have had their democracy stolen from them and have had no say in the terms of these crooked loans.

 

[ksen]

So what does Keynes say to do if your sprawling cronyist government and rampant corruption prevent you from ever having uptimes?

Or what does Keynes recommend when the cash in your account is empty and no one will lend you more?

He recommends hitting Ctrl+p.

 

[Axulus]

Yes, but to spend one must have cash in their account. How is Greece supposed to get all these billions of cash in their account in order to spend Keynesian style?

Normally a country would either sell bonds or if that wasn't an option just print the money. A sovereign nation will never be without cash in their account. Which is why Greece is having a lot of difficulty managing their down economy since they gave up control over the only means to fight it and made themselves overly dependent upon others.

Can you give any example throughout history where a country that "just printed the money" successfully avoided a deep recession and eventually led to a good economy? That did not enter into a massive inflationary phase? Or is this just a faith based position?

 

[dismal]

He has a book deal he needs to get after.

Right, a book deal. Because that's where the real money is.

Compared to being a failed Finance Minister of Greece as it circles round the drain pick up speed? Yes, I think, so.

To me it sounds more like a good cop - bad cop routine, where the bad cop has just thrown a chair across the room and the good cop sends him out to cool off. "Now that guy was batshit crazy, but I think you and I can cut a deal..."

Syriza all seem more or less cut from the same mold. Sending a different clueless idiot is not going to change the dynamic. Greece is going to have suck big time for a while now. Maybe the EU will soften up if the breadlines get bad enough.

 

[ksen]

Normally a country would either sell bonds or if that wasn't an option just print the money. A sovereign nation will never be without cash in their account. Which is why Greece is having a lot of difficulty managing their down economy since they gave up control over the only means to fight it and made themselves overly dependent upon others.

Can you give any example throughout history where a country that "just printed the money" successfully avoided a deep recession and eventually led to a good economy? That did not enter into a massive inflationary phase? Or is this just a faith based position?

Another nice try.

 

[Axulus]

Can you give any example throughout history where a country that "just printed the money" successfully avoided a deep recession and eventually led to a good economy? That did not enter into a massive inflationary phase? Or is this just a faith based position?

Another nice try.

Give me your best example, whatever criteria you want to use. Isn't the whole claim you are making that Greece, if it had its own currency, would've "just printed the money" to avoid it's deep recession, the very recession you blame Greece's lenders for?

 

[ksen]

Isn't the whole claim you are making that Greece, if it had its own currency, would've "just printed the money" to avoid it's deep recession, the very recession you blame Greece's lenders for?

No, my claim has never been that the deep recession would have been avoided.

My claim is that nation's with control over their own currency are able to use that control to better deal with recessions and too much debt than nation's without control over their own currency.

 

[Axulus]

Isn't the whole claim you are making that Greece, if it had its own currency, would've "just printed the money" to avoid it's deep recession, the very recession you blame Greece's lenders for?

No, my claim has never been that the deep recession would have been avoided.

My claim is that nation's with control over their own currency are able to use that control to better deal with recessions and too much debt than nation's without control over their own currency.

Then please give me an example of a country that found itself with too much debt, was unable to borrow more, and "just printed the money" to keep spending, that led to anything even remotely what we would consider a good outcome (given the situation)?

 

[arkirk]

Can you give any example throughout history where a country that "just printed the money" successfully avoided a deep recession and eventually led to a good economy? That did not enter into a massive inflationary phase? Or is this just a faith based position?

Another nice try.

No country "just prints" money. This money is parallel to real physical operations being undertaken by a government. I think we could benefit by the return of Roosevelt personal and corporate tax policies and rates. Something like that would probably be helpful in Greece too, along with expanded public works.

 

[Axulus]

Venezuela is "just printing the money" in ever increasing amounts, resulting in inflation over 100% per year. How's that working out for them?

 

[ksen]

No, my claim has never been that the deep recession would have been avoided.

My claim is that nation's with control over their own currency are able to use that control to better deal with recessions and too much debt than nation's without control over their own currency.

Then please give me an example of a country that found itself with too much debt, was unable to borrow more, and "just printed the money" to keep spending, that led to anything even remotely what we would consider a good outcome (given the situation)?

I don't know that there ever has been a country that controls its own currency that has found itself not being able to borrow more. Currently Japan has over 200% debt/GDP and has no trouble selling bonds to continue financing itself.

I see no reason to think that if Greece were able to start selling drachma denominated bonds again that there wouldn't be a market for it.

 

[Axulus]

Then please give me an example of a country that found itself with too much debt, was unable to borrow more, and "just printed the money" to keep spending, that led to anything even remotely what we would consider a good outcome (given the situation)?

I don't know that there ever has been a country that controls its own currency that has found itself not being able to borrow more. Currently Japan has over 200% debt/GDP and has no trouble selling bonds to continue financing itself.

I see no reason to think that if Greece were able to start selling drachma denominated bonds again that there wouldn't be a market for it.

Some countries with their own currencies that found themselves no longer able to keep borrowing more:

Argentina

And how did controlling their own currency and being able to "just print the money" work out for them?

The economy shrank by 28 percent from 1998 to 2002.[2][6] In terms of income, over 50 percent of Argentines were poor and 25 percent, indigent; seven out of ten Argentine children were poor at the depth of the crisis in 2002.[1][6]

Or how about the Latin American debt crisis, which led to Mexican default? These countries all had control over their currencies and had the ability to "just print the money".

The debt crisis of 1982 was the most serious of Latin America's history. Incomes dropped; economic growth stagnated; because of the need to reduce importations, unemployment rose to high levels; and inflation reduced the buying power of the middle classes.[5] In fact, in the ten years after 1980, real wages in urban areas actually dropped between 20 and 40 percent.[7] Additionally, investment that might have been used to address social issues and poverty was instead being used to pay the debt.[1

 

[arkirk]

Venezuela is "just printing the money" in ever increasing amounts, resulting in inflation over 100% per year. How's that working out for them?

Venezuela is not "just printing money." That nation's priorities are not yours and so you have no real way to describe whether it is "working" or not. Venezuela started in a deep hole with a really terrible natural resource the source(oil...kind of dirty oil at that ) of most of the national income. Some of their goals and proudly accomplished projects are things like universal literacy and health care. Depressed oil prices and also over reliance on that resource is a problem but they are attempting to deal with. You simply do not care about the well being of Venezuelans or you would know that there have been numerous positive events in their lives since Chavez. You are set on denying any validity to a real hardfought battle for stability but I feel they will probably not be denied. You probably hated the Castro brothers too. You are a slow learner.

 

[Axulus]

Venezuela is "just printing the money" in ever increasing amounts, resulting in inflation over 100% per year. How's that working out for them?

Venezuela is not "just printing money." That nation's priorities are not yours and so you have no real way to describe whether it is "working" or not. Venezuela started in a deep hole with a really terrible natural resource the source(oil...kind of dirty oil at that ) of most of the national income. Some of their goals and proudly accomplished projects are things like universal literacy and health care. Depressed oil prices and also over reliance on that resource is a problem but they are attempting to deal with. You simply do not care about the well being of Venezuelans or you would know that there have been numerous positive events in their lives since Chavez. You are set on denying any validity to a real hardfought battle for stability but I feel they will probably not be denied. You probably hated the Castro brothers too. You are a slow learner.

Columbia, Venezuela's next door neighbor, has near universal literacy and universal health care and is not suffering the same problems of Venezuela and has had a similar amount of poverty reduction as Venezuela over the last 15 years.

I care about the Venezuelans apparently more than you do which is why I recommend they adopt the similar successful economic and taxation policies as Colombia and dump the failed "Chavista" policies that are ending in disaster, a disaster which everyone saw coming years in advance.