Greece, what the fuck?

[Jokodo]

This is not the first time lenders have imposed conditions on borrowers that attempt to make it more likely the lender will get paid back.

It's also not the first time lenders have imposed conditions on borrowers that in reality make it less likely the lender will get paid back.

But it's one of very few times where the lenders are doing so knowingly - they care more about humiliating SYRIZA than about their money.

 

[dismal]

It's not that ridiculous.

But you do understand that there is no concept of Democracy in which Greece can vote itself Germany's money?

 

[ksen]

Euro's aren't "Germany's money" no matter how much they might like to think so.

 

[dismal]

Euro's aren't "Germany's money" no matter how much they might like to think so.

Some Euros are in fact Germany's money.

 

[Derec]

Tspiras == J. Wellington Wilby

 

[whichphilosophy]

Euro's aren't "Germany's money" no matter how much they might like to think so.

Some Euros are in fact Germany's money.

A few Euros are my money as well. Some Euros are also China's money kept in its foreign currency reserves.

 

[dismal]

Some Euros are in fact Germany's money.

A few Euros are my money as well. Some Euros are also China's money kept in its foreign currency reserves.

Yes. And Greece's problem is not enough of them are Greece's to pay Greece's bills.

So it wants to borrow someone else's.

Are you volunteering yours?

 

[ksen]

Euro's aren't "Germany's money" no matter how much they might like to think so.

Some Euros are in fact Germany's money.

Not the ones part of the Greek bailout packages.

 

[Jayjay]

Some Euros are in fact Germany's money.

Not the ones part of the Greek bailout packages.

Then who's money is it?

And since you are a fan of democracy, do you think it would be a good idea to let Germany and other creditor countries vote also whether to continue to pour money to Greece? The public opinion in a lot of those countries is much more hard-line than the troika's.

 

[ksen]

Not the ones part of the Greek bailout packages.

Then who's money is it?

It's the ECB's money.

And since you are a fan of democracy,

Implying that you are not?

do you think it would be a good idea to let Germany and other creditor countries vote also whether to continue to pour money to Greece? The public opinion in a lot of those countries is much more hard-line than the troika's.

Unless Germany and the other northern european nations are directly buying greek bonds they aren't pouring money into Greece currently.

That said, they can vote on whatever they want to vote on. They're their countries.

 

[Axulus]

I'm looking at the list you provided and the heading says "Greece Prior Actions". Does that mean it's a list that Greece already agreed to? I'm not clear what the list actually is.

It was the offer proposed by the troika to agree to release the rest of the bailout. Tsipras rejected it and it is now the proposal going up for a referendum vote.

 

[Axulus]

When Greece’s finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, in an early round of negotiations in Brussels, complained that Greek pensions could not be cut any further, he was reminded bluntly by his colleague from Lithuania that pensioners there have survived on far less. Lithuania, according to the most recent figures issued by Eurostat, the European statistics agency, spends 472 euros, about $598, per capita on pensions, less than a third of the 1,625 euros spent by Greece. Bulgaria spends just 257 euros. This data refers to 2012 and Greek pensions have since been cut, but they still remain higher than those in Bulgaria, Lithuania, Latvia, Croatia and nearly all other states in eastern, central and southeastern Europe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/w...ct-little-sympathy-from-poorer-neighbors.html

 

[Jayjay]

Then who's money is it?

It's the ECB's money.

No, it isn't. Some of it is ECB's money (though arguably Germany is a stakeholder in ECB also), but the largest holder of Greece debt is the European Financial Stability Fun to which Germany is the main contributor. There are also bilateral loans between Greece and Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#/media/File:Creditors_of_Greece.png

do you think it would be a good idea to let Germany and other creditor countries vote also whether to continue to pour money to Greece? The public opinion in a lot of those countries is much more hard-line than the troika's.

Unless Germany and the other northern european nations are directly buying greek bonds they aren't pouring money into Greece currently.

That said, they can vote on whatever they want to vote on. They're their countries.

Of course Germany or Greece can vote on whatever they want. But it's lunacy to expect their respective votes to dictate what other countries should do. The Greek vote "give us more money" is not binding on Germany or any other eurozone nations.

 

[ksen]

The greeks aren't voting on "give us more money."

 

[DrZoidberg]

There´s arguments for both. But being inside the EU gives access to lots of capital they otherwise wouldn´t have as readily available. Being inside the EU means lots of rules. Rules give security.

The EU hard line they have now has taken a while to get like this. Greece has taken the rest of EU for granted up till now. It´s not surprising that their creditors have had enough. There is a problem here where Greeks don´t feel responsible for their own economy. They blame it on their leaders (justifiably).

I think chances are that the EU central bank will soften over time. But Greece needs to show they´re taking the ECB seriously. So far they haven´t. Voting Tsipras into power also proved that. Obviously the rest of Europe won´t roll over endlessly, as they have done so far. Enough is enough. It´s Greece´s turn to show they are compliant. I think that is reasonable.

There's no virtue in complying with unreasonable demands.

Unreasonable according to whom? Both sides think they are reasonable and have good reasons to think so.

This Margaret Thatcher quote is very apt in this situation:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"

I do hate Thatcher with a passion. But she did say lots of great quotable things.

 

[Jokodo]

There's no virtue in complying with unreasonable demands.

Unreasonable according to whom? Both sides think they are reasonable and have good reasons to think so.

Wrong. The troika know that Greece isn't going to be able to pay back its debt with or without austerity. They say so themselves in private http://www.theguardian.com/business...sis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

The purpose of bullying Greece isn't to maximise returns, it's to humiliate SYRIZA and make life as hard as can for the Greek people so voters in other countries won't get the "wrong" ideas.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Unreasonable according to whom? Both sides think they are reasonable and have good reasons to think so.

Wrong. The troika know that Greece isn't going to be able to pay back its debt with or without austerity. They say so themselves in private http://www.theguardian.com/business...sis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

The purpose of bullying Greece isn't to maximise returns, it's to humiliate SYRIZA and make life as hard as can for the Greek people so voters in other countries won't get the "wrong" ideas.

Super-silly notion. Of course it´s not about humiliating anybody. It´s just a fact that Greece won´t be able to pay back without austerity. In countries where tax dodging is a publicly accepted sport the only system that works is no system, ie economic liberalisation. I´m a lefty. But even I see when it´s pointless to try to impose it. Lefty reforms assumes there is money in the system to use. It assumes a healthy market to start with. A healthy market that is intelligently taxed in a way that works. Right now that doesn´t exist in Greece. So they need to try something else.

The fact that the ECB have let Greece avoid their responsibilities for so long, I´d say is proof they aren´t trying to humiliate Greece. The fact that the Greeks voted for a political party who´s entire platform revolved around not paying back, I´d say calls for the ECB to stop being nice to Greece. Yes, they have it coming.

 

[bilby]

Forcing austerity measures on Greece so they can pay their debts is like forcing a carpenter to sell his tools so he can pay his home loan. It is stupid short-termism; the best return for the creditors can be achieved by allowing the debtor to continue to maintain his ability to pay something back indefinitely, rather than looking at only his ability to pay this month.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Forcing austerity measures on Greece so they can pay their debts is like forcing a carpenter to sell his tools so he can pay his home loan. It is stupid short-termism; the best return for the creditors can be achieved by allowing the debtor to continue to maintain his ability to pay something back indefinitely, rather than looking at only his ability to pay this month.

Greece has never fixed it´s system for collecting taxes. After the fall of the Ottoman empire they had a liberal economy with few rights and subsidies. it was a small government situation. They barely collected taxes. But they didn´t really need much money anyway During the Ottoman empire Greece had an extremely corrupt culture where it was seen as a civic duty to try to evade paying tax to their alien overlords. Avoiding paying tax was akin to patriotism. That culture remains.

After the fall of the Greek junta in 1973 Greece has become increasingly more lefty. But they NEVER fixed the broken tax collection system. So all that happened was that debt increased, and without the economy expanding much. The tax system needs to be fixed first. Austerity will need to happen regardless. They just don´t have the money to pay for the system they have now. They´re broke.

 

[untermensche]

There's no virtue in complying with unreasonable demands.

Unreasonable according to whom? Both sides think they are reasonable and have good reasons to think so.

This Margaret Thatcher quote is very apt in this situation:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money"

I do hate Thatcher with a passion. But she did say lots of great quotable things.

Unreasonable economic policy.

You can't destimulate an economy into growth.

The demands made on Greece were religious in nature, not sound economic policy.

Sound economic policy is to institute massive Keynesian spending to stimulate an economy first then when it is robust increase the demands to pay debts at a larger scale.