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MCATs, Affirmative Action, and DEI, Oh My

Because we are discussing standardized tests, there are hard minimum and maximum boundaries. In your hypothetical, a minimum score of 0 corresponds to two standard deviations below the mean. Since it's impossible to score below 0, the data cannot follow a perfect bell curve—it has to be skewed.
Agreed - and great post.

I was really only trying to make the point that raising and lowering the bar can create different resulting distributions by race category, depending on the other statistical metrics - in contrast to the assumption that different races have different thresholds.

Plus... trying to make a simplified illustration with skew involved would require me to dust off a textbook.
 
The big title in bold is not consistent with the last underlined bullet quote, as the bullet quote says,"...during the first year of residency...". There are still several years of residency after the first year, and those are arguably more important for success as a full fledged doctor. Also, the bolded title makes a claim that "MCAT success doesn't seem to translate to... residency success", but that is not supported by any of the bullet points.

The study is from just one medical school and and during a two year period, so not really that comprehensive. It is odd though, why the first year is an exception.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAT varies from actual success by a fair bit. The question is whether or not there's some other objective metric that correlates better than MCAT.
 
But some people are so invested in the notion that white and ( certain) Asian people —especially males—are discriminated against because they are no longer first in line for all good things that they feel compelled to bring up MCAT scores in a totally unrelated discussion.
I think you're missing the core concept of the complaint.

It's not that white males are no longer first in line. It's the impression that other groups are being placed first in line, rather than everyone having an equal shot at the line.

For some people, including me, we were raised to believe that race should not be a factor at all - neither for nor against. It certainly seems that DEI objectives nowadays include race as a decision-making factor, and that it weights in favor of some races.

Now, it certainly could be that some people who object only object due to racism. I think it's also the case that a lot of people who object aren't at all racist, but rather they believe that the policies are specifically seeking to privilege some races above others.
 
The big title in bold is not consistent with the last underlined bullet quote, as the bullet quote says,"...during the first year of residency...". There are still several years of residency after the first year, and those are arguably more important for success as a full fledged doctor. Also, the bolded title makes a claim that "MCAT success doesn't seem to translate to... residency success", but that is not supported by any of the bullet points.

The study is from just one medical school and and during a two year period, so not really that comprehensive. It is odd though, why the first year is an exception.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAT varies from actual success by a fair bit. The question is whether or not there's some other objective metric that correlates better than MCAT.
The actually metrics aren't hard here. Percent of people with low MCAT's and people with mid and high MCAT's that graduate Med School would be a really good metric. As would drop out rates by race.

If med schools are letting in people below X for MCAT and only 15% are graduating, and the rate of graduation of mid and/or high were much higher, that'd imply that a person with a higher MCAT was likely prevented from getting a real chance to attend and graduate and be a doctor in order to allow someone who had little chance, get the slot instead.

Regarding dropping out (which can have other causes, but we'll keep it simple), I found this link.

study said:
There are a couple ways to look at this.

1) OMFG!!! Blacks drop out about 250% more than whites!!! OMFFFFFGGFG!
2) Out of 1000 people, 977 whites don't drop out and 943 blacks don't drop out.

With these numbers, it makes one wonder, the importance of the MCAT other than being a basic screening tool.
 
But some people are so invested in the notion that white and ( certain) Asian people —especially males—are discriminated against because they are no longer first in line for all good things that they feel compelled to bring up MCAT scores in a totally unrelated discussion.
I think you're missing the core concept of the complaint.

It's not that white males are no longer first in line. It's the impression that other groups are being placed first in line, rather than everyone having an equal shot at the line.

For some people, including me, we were raised to believe that race should not be a factor at all - neither for nor against. It certainly seems that DEI objectives nowadays include race as a decision-making factor, and that it weights in favor of some races.

Now, it certainly could be that some people who object only object due to racism. I think it's also the case that a lot of people who object aren't at all racist, but rather they believe that the policies are specifically seeking to privilege some races above others.
Policies have always been set, both explicitly and implicitly, to favor a particular gender and race and perceived sexual orientation. Historically—in fact until not very long ago the preferred candidates were: Straight, white and male. Preferably Christian or Christian adjacent, preferably not Catholic and not Jewish. Within some communities, those who did not fit that niche, some were able to rise to positions of influence, power and wealth.

For a lot of perfectly nice people, the perception that the only reason straight white male is no longer the first in line is that others are being given preferential treatment—and ignoring the fact that their perception has been based upon the long established precedent of straight white male being the best choice.

I’ve talked with enough admissions counselors to know that admissions seeks to built a class that does not reflect the same very narrow world that most incoming first year students are accustomed to—but to bring together people of diverse backgrounds and experiences and talents. Because the world is a big wonderful place full of of many different kinds of people and that their talents, skills, ambitions, and abilities are not allocated by race, gender, sexual orientation ration/expression , class, ethnicity, first language or country where they or their parents or grandparents were born.

Otherwise, college ( or professional school) is really not much different than high school.

I’ll bet most of us learned a lot after high school from people who were a lot different t than our high school classmates.

And if you didn’t, then it’s because you weren’t really trying—and that’s on you.

Aren’t we all tired of the same two or three movies, with the same damn plot, just cast with slightly different actors? Switching it up to put women in traditionally male roles in the same 2-3 plots anymore than casting the next version with black or Asian actors doesn’t improve the plot or quality of the project.

That said, Ghost Busters with Hemsworth as the sexy secretary was a hoot and a half.

But still: Universities and Med schools, law schools, vet schools, grad and professional schools gave a lot riding on admitting students who will be successful.

Not every important or necessary quality is reflected in GPA or MCAT scores. Which do not matter at all after you are admitted. Seriously: Do you know your doctor’s MCAT scores? Or even where they attended medical school? Does that matter?
 
I think you may have missed the point I was attempting to make.
You mean that because the admissions process has changed so that since white men are automatically at the front of the line, it must be unfair?
I really wish sometimes you (general) woudl take the sticks out of your asses and actually read for comprehension instead of assuming malice in other people.

Go fucking read my post again, LD. This time without your prejudice.

You know what? Don't bother, let me try to make this simpler for you:

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAT varies from actual success by a fair bit. The question is whether or not there's some other objective metric that correlates better than MCAT.

And I'll even do you the courtesy of dumbing it down even more:

MCAT might not be a good predictor of success as a doctor. Is there some other objective measure that does a better job?
 
For fuck's holy sake. Toni and LD, you're both treating me like I'm wearing a goddamned white hood. And what have I done? I argued against Derec's claim of different requirements being used for different races, going so far as to demonstrate that the same threshold could result in different acceptance rates, simply due to different averages and standard deviations. And then, oh the horror, I opined that MCAT probably does vary from actual success!
 
Policies have always been set, both explicitly and implicitly, to favor a particular gender and race and perceived sexual orientation.
Do you think they should continue to be set both implicitly and explicitly to favor a particular sex, race, or sexual orientation?
 
I think you may have missed the point I was attempting to make.
You mean that because the admissions process has changed so that since white men are automatically at the front of the line, it must be unfair?
I really wish sometimes you (general) woudl take the sticks out of your asses and actually read for comprehension instead of assuming malice in other people.

Go fucking read my post again, LD. This time without your prejudice.
I responded to the content in your post #43. Perhaps you should be consistent with your points.
Emily Lake said:
You know what? Don't bother, let me try to make this simpler for you:

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAT varies from actual success by a fair bit. The question is whether or not there's some other objective metric that correlates better than MCAT.

And I'll even do you the courtesy of dumbing it down even more:

MCAT might not be a good predictor of success as a doctor. Is there some other objective measure that does a better job?
An objective measure of success as a doctor is required for that. Good luck.
 
Policies have always been set, both explicitly and implicitly, to favor a particular gender and race and perceived sexual orientation.
Do you think they should continue to be set both implicitly and explicitly to favor a particular sex, race, or sexual orientation?
Your question assumes
1) policies implicitly favor a particular sex, race, or sexual orientation,
2) policies explicitly favor a particular sex, race, or sexual orientation, and
3) a policy that neither implicitly nor explicitly favors a particular sex, race or sexual orientation exists.
 
You are all digging around in the noise, looking for a signal that can't possibly be there.

Test scores presented to three significant digits are a great example of spurious accuracy.

A sensible system would just give everyone with an MCAT above 505 a "pass" grade, and not bother to reveal the exact score, on the basis that exact scoring is not an exact representation of anything useful.

The idea that these results measure some dependable quality to the level of detail suggested by the use of three digit scores, rather than just saying (for example) that everyone who scored above 505 gets an "A", and anyone over 515 gets an "A+", and recognising that the difference between a score of 514 and a score of 516 is utterly insignificant, and that even bracketing students into two pools is therefore arbitrary (and bracketing them into dozens of scores, each one point apart, is both arbitrary and futile).

Examiners and examination boards won't ever admit it, but their ability to spot the best candidates for admission to a course (or to whom to award a degree or certification) is extremely crude. They hide this behind the spurious accuracy found in the raw test scores, from tests that are necessarily dramatically unlike real-world medical decision making.

Even if you could all agree on how many angels each candidate can fit on the head of his or her pin, the idea that ranking the best students more precisely than to just declare them all "adequate" is absurd.

Here are a thousand students. Who is the best? Dozens are. Picking the one, singular, "best" is just a lottery - and there's a huge industry devoted to pretending that it isn't. You can't get a struck match between the top fifty. They will all do as well as can be expected in med school - some will drop out, some will pass with flying colours. Nobody can predict which.

An actual lottery would be no less inequitable than picking those with the highest MCAT score over those with lower (but still qualifying) scores.
 
Some people do better on standardized tests regardless of their intelligence and educational background and if anyone did a little research, they would realize as has been pointed out a few times, that MCAT scores do not make a good or a bad doctor. Things like emotional intelligence, willingness to keep learning, being open minded as new medical discoveries take place are far more important than MCAT scores.

Plus, a a nurse who has dealt with both good and horrible doctors, imo, many doctors don't bother to learn much of anything new once they begin practicing. This, imo is very true of while male doctors, not all of them of course, but far too damn many of them. Gotta go. Have fun with this silly argument or find something better to do with your time.
 
MCAT might not be a good predictor of success as a doctor. Is there some other objective measure that does a better job?

I don't know about "objective," but if you look at the study that I had posted, you might say that the last two years of med school begin to predict how well one might do as a doctor. This is because hands-on training (and work) is being performed. Think about this as possibly additional skill sets involving other dimensions: social and physical. southernhybrid mentions above: emotional intelligence and that would be one aspect, perhaps under a social category. There could also be some factors such as resilience after observing traumas, keeping your cool.

And there's also a kind of procedural dexterity: I remember in basic training, we were taught to shout some verbatim definition for an M16, but then later, shooting an M16 in target practice and scoring well is different from the capacity to shout a definition, and later on shooting an M16 on the battlefield is yet again different from target practice.
 
Test scores presented to three significant digits are a great example of spurious accuracy.
THANK you. I am constantly trying to make this point. If someone thinks that a difference of twenty or thirty "points" on a standardized exam is an important matker of essential, immutable "qualification", either they haven't thought all that hard about what the points actually mean, or they'd do quite poorly themselves on any standardized measure of qualitative reasoning.
 
You are all digging around in the noise, looking for a signal that can't possibly be there.
But... but... but race!!!

It like all the whining about women starring in action movies. Oh... it has nothing to do with misogyny... we just consistently complain about any action movie starring a woman.
Well, to be a bit off topic, I complain about women staring in action movies ( and think I did recently on this forum) not because women are in action movies but because the only ‘good’ ie fantastically lucrative roles for ( many) women are basically playing men with breasts. Everything else- if it is female centered —is a ‘chick flick,’ unless it is about rape or being a mother

Sorry for off topic rant.
 
Some people do better on standardized tests regardless of their intelligence and educational background and if anyone did a little research, they would realize as has been pointed out a few times, that MCAT scores do not make a good or a bad doctor. Things like emotional intelligence, willingness to keep learning, being open minded as new medical discoveries take place are far more important than MCAT scores.

Plus, a a nurse who has dealt with both good and horrible doctors, imo, many doctors don't bother to learn much of anything new once they begin practicing. This, imo is very true of while male doctors, not all of them of course, but far too damn many of them. Gotta go. Have fun with this silly argument or find something better to do with your time.
To add to this: for many undergrad students who are aiming for medical school, there is a strong competition for top scores, top grades, the most rigorous ( you name it) available—a kind of pseudo intellectual machismo.

This tends to produce students who are very very good at earning perfect scores but who do not necessarily develop good social skills, empathy, listening skills.
 
I think you may have missed the point I was attempting to make.
You mean that because the admissions process has changed so that since white men are automatically at the front of the line, it must be unfair?
I really wish sometimes you (general) woudl take the sticks out of your asses and actually read for comprehension instead of assuming malice in other people.

Go fucking read my post again, LD. This time without your prejudice.
I responded to the content in your post #43. Perhaps you should be consistent with your points.
But you didn't respond to the content in my post #43. You responded to my interaction with Jimmy, which was about post #42.

If you wanted to respond to the content in my post #43... you should have responded to my post #43. That would have been consistent.
Emily Lake said:
You know what? Don't bother, let me try to make this simpler for you:

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if MCAT varies from actual success by a fair bit. The question is whether or not there's some other objective metric that correlates better than MCAT.

And I'll even do you the courtesy of dumbing it down even more:

MCAT might not be a good predictor of success as a doctor. Is there some other objective measure that does a better job?
An objective measure of success as a doctor is required for that. Good luck.
{shrug} You read as if you're being dismissive and condescending. I just don't know exactly what you think you're dismissing.

How do we predict who will be a good and successful doctor when we're looking at admittance to medical school? MCAT is what has been used (among some other things). MCAT might not be a good predictor, or it may only have a lowish level of correlation. Is there something that would work better? Please, feel free to make suggestions.,
 
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