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Liberalism And Conservatism

steve_bank

Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
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secular-skeptic
Liberal and liberalism has been bandied of late on threads, what does it mean?

Liberalism is a political philosophy. Being liberal can mean different things. Sexually liberal. Liberal about drugs.

In a broad sense our conserves are liberal. Post WWII liberal western democracies. Government yo protect individual rights.

To me a large part of what divides our liberal and conservatives largeis the degree of social programs.

If you are anti liberalism as a political philosophy, why? What is your alternative? Chinese authoritarianism? Putin dictatorship?

AI Overview
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on individual rights, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, and equality before the law. It supports liberal democracy, freedom of speech, press, religion, and the right to private property.Core

Principles
Individualism: The belief that the individual has primary moral worth and basic rights.

Rule of Law: Laws must treat all citizens equally and limit the arbitrary power of rulers

Consent of the Governed: Governments derive their legitimacy from the people they govern.

Tolerance: Acceptance of diverse religious, political, and social viewpoints.

Classical vs. Modern Liberalism

Classical Liberalism: Views the state as the main threat to freedom. It favors limited government, low taxes, and free-market capitalism.

Modern Liberalism: Holds that freedom can also be threatened by private economic forces. It supports government regulation, social safety nets, and civil rights protections to help people achieve equal opportunity.



Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Different liberals espouse various and sometimes conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support liberal democracy, private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11 

Liberalism became a distinct movement in the Age of Enlightenment, gaining popularity among Western philosophers and economists. Liberalism sought to replace the norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, the divine right of kings, and traditional conservatism with representative democracy, rule of law, and equality under the law. Liberals also ended mercantilist policies, royal monopolies, and other trade barriers, instead promoting free trade and marketization.[6] The philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct tradition based on the social contract, arguing that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property, and governments must not violate these rights.[7] While the British liberal tradition emphasized expanding democracy, French liberalism emphasized rejecting authoritarianism.[8]
 
Progressives rapid change. Conserves slow change, sastus quo.

AI Overview
Conservatism is a political and social philosophy that stresses the importance of traditional values, established institutions, and gradual, steady change over rapid or radical societal transformation.

Core Principle
Value of Tradition: Respect for long-standing customs, religious frameworks, and historical continuity.
Skepticism of Radical Change: A belief that sudden or sweeping political overhauls often cause more harm than good.
Social Order: Viewing society as an organic, interconnected whole that relies on stability and shared moral duties.Prudence and Experience: Preferring practical, tested methods over abstract or theoretical plans.

Key Variations
Traditionalist Conservatism: Focuses on maintaining moral order, organic social hierarchies, and established cultural institutions
.Fiscal/Economic Conservatism: Advocates for limited government spending, lower taxes, free markets, and deregulation.
Social/Cultural Conservatism: Emphasizes the preservation of traditional family structures and religious or cultural norms.


Conservatism is a cultural, social, and political philosophy and ideology that seeks to promote and preserve traditional institutions, customs, and values.[1][2][3] The central tenets of conservatism may vary in relation to the culture and civilization in which it appears.[4] In Western culture, depending on the particular nation and the particular time period, conservatives seek to promote and preserve a range of institutions, such as the nuclear family, organized religion, the military, the nation-state, constitution, property rights, rule of law, aristocracy, and monarchy.[5][6]

The 18th-century Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke, who opposed the French Revolution but supported the American Revolution, is credited as one of the forefathers of Western conservative thought in the 1790s along with Savoyard statesman Joseph de Maistre.[7] The first established use of the term in a political context originated in 1818 with François-René de Chateaubriand during the period of Bourbon Restoration that sought to roll back the policies of the French Revolution and establish social order.[8]
 
Progressives rapid change. Conserves slow change, sastus quo.

AI Overview
Conservatism is a political and social philosophy that stresses the importance of traditional values, established institutions, and gradual, steady change over rapid or radical societal transformation.

Core Principle
Value of Tradition: Respect for long-standing customs, religious frameworks, and historical continuity.
Skepticism of Radical Change: A belief that sudden or sweeping political overhauls often cause more harm than good.
Social Order: Viewing society as an organic, interconnected whole that relies on stability and shared moral duties.Prudence and Experience: Preferring practical, tested methods over abstract or theoretical plans.

Key Variations
Traditionalist Conservatism: Focuses on maintaining moral order, organic social hierarchies, and established cultural institutions
.Fiscal/Economic Conservatism: Advocates for limited government spending, lower taxes, free markets, and deregulation.
Social/Cultural Conservatism: Emphasizes the preservation of traditional family structures and religious or cultural norms.


Conservatism is a cultural, social, and political philosophy and ideology that seeks to promote and preserve traditional institutions, customs, and values.[1][2][3] The central tenets of conservatism may vary in relation to the culture and civilization in which it appears.[4] In Western culture, depending on the particular nation and the particular time period, conservatives seek to promote and preserve a range of institutions, such as the nuclear family, organized religion, the military, the nation-state, constitution, property rights, rule of law, aristocracy, and monarchy.[5][6]

The 18th-century Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke, who opposed the French Revolution but supported the American Revolution, is credited as one of the forefathers of Western conservative thought in the 1790s along with Savoyard statesman Joseph de Maistre.[7] The first established use of the term in a political context originated in 1818 with François-René de Chateaubriand during the period of Bourbon Restoration that sought to roll back the policies of the French Revolution and establish social order.[8]
I’m social liberal; fiscally conservative.
 
Stoically liberal, fiscally conservator, and pragmatic ...

I was hoping Dr Zoid would chime in with his anti liberalism.
 

The 18th-century Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke, who opposed the French Revolution but supported the American Revolution, is credited as one of the forefathers of Western conservative thought in the 1790s ...
So people say. Burke was a Whig; the Whig party evolved into the Liberal Party. He spent his political career fighting the Tories; the Tory party evolved into the Conservative Party.
 
If you are anti liberalism as a political philosophy, why?

Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property, and equality before the law.[1][2] Different liberals espouse various and sometimes conflicting views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support liberal democracy, private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion.[3] Liberalism is frequently cited as the dominant ideology of modern history.[4][5]: 11 

Liberalism became a distinct movement in the Age of Enlightenment, gaining popularity among Western philosophers and economists. Liberalism sought to replace the norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, the divine right of kings, and traditional conservatism with representative democracy, rule of law, and equality under the law. Liberals also ended mercantilist policies, royal monopolies, and other trade barriers, instead promoting free trade and marketization.[6] The philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct tradition based on the social contract, arguing that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property, and governments must not violate these rights.[7] While the British liberal tradition emphasized expanding democracy, French liberalism emphasized rejecting authoritarianism.[8]
What does "as a political philosophy" mean? The policies the Wikipedia authors describe -- rule of law, representative democracy, rights of the individual, liberty, political equality, right to private property, equality before the law, ending trade barriers, promoting free trade and marketization -- are all fantastically good ideas. But the customary philosophical underpinnings they describe -- "social contract" and "consent of the governed" -- are a childish self-serving fairy tale, an origin myth on an intellectual level with the divine right of kings. They are contract-by-proxy and consent-by-proxy, which make exactly as much sense as Christianity's sin-by-proxy and atone-by-proxy. And the moral theory they are based on is the same as the one Locke sought to replace: the Supreme Wisher. Divine Command Theory doesn't magically become an intelligent way of thinking about right and wrong just because you swap out God and replace him with The People. "Governments derive their legitimacy from the people they govern." is mush-headed nonsense. Rulers' legitimacy doesn't come from how they got into power; it comes from how they govern.

But I don't see this perspective as "anti liberalism as a political philosophy"; I see it as "Liberalism is in need of a more rigorous philosophical grounding.". The essential feature of liberalism that makes it liberalism is not the philosophy; it's the "rule of law, representative democracy, rights of the individual, liberty, political equality, right to private property, equality before the law, ending trade barriers, promoting free trade and marketization".
 
I’m social liberal; fiscally conservative.
But money is needed to fund social programs. How do you square that?
It's not actually that difficult.

Money is needed, but "more money" doesn't necessarily lead to better outcomes. Spend money wisely, and where it will accomplish the goal it's intended to accomplish. And if it's not accomplishing that goal, stop spending it.

Not all social programs are created equal. Some have more identifiable and measurable outcomes, or serve a social good that almost everyone agrees is worthwhile. School lunch programs, for example, have widely been supported by both political parties and people of all income levels. We all know that having a meal is important in a day full of learning, we all know that some kids have less than others and need a helping hand to get a healthy and filling meal. It supports overall childhood health which is well established as an indicator of future success. It supports a level of equal opportunity that I think we all generally want in place.

On the other hand, I would say that publicly funded wet shelters, and safe drug use locations are perhaps not a wise use of funds. I know they sound nice, but looking at the repercussions in the areas they've been tried, I don't think they benefit the public and arguably increase risks for a whole lot of people.

Being fiscally conservative doesn't mean don't spend any money. It means spend it wisely and be sure that it's going to work, because it's other people's money that you're spending. Being fiscally conservative generally means one believes the government has a fiduciary responsibility to taxpayers, and should act as a prudent intermediary for our funds.
 
I shall cross-post myself, rather than rewriting this but of philosophical rambling:

My opinion on this topic, so take it for what it is and nothing more :)

Libertarian versus Authoritarian isn't a left/right issue at all. You can have extremely left wing economic policy in a highly authoritarian government; you can have extremely right wing economic policy in a highly libertarian government.

Most of the people in the US lean libertarian, even if we don't really think of it that way. We take individual liberty for granted most of the time, and don't really think about it. We have a LOT of personal freedoms, and we tend to get really cranky when the government violates those freedoms. Much of Europe is a bit less libertarian than the US, but still wouldn't fall into the authoritarian side of the scale. On the other hand... North Korea is definitely very authoritarian.

Nothing is well defined, but where I've ended up over the years (with some influence from Political Compass a couple decades ago) is the following:

Left versus Right has a lot more to do with economic policy, and how much of a country's monetary system and policies are controlled. Left includes more regulation that governs how people are allowed to make money, how much money they can make, minimum wages and incomes, and a high degree of taxation. Right includes less regulation over how people make money, fewer wealth or income caps on both individuals and businesses, and lower taxation.

Libertarian versus Authoritarian has to do with how much the government controls our social life, sets laws around what we can and cannot do, what behaviors are deemed legally acceptable or not, including moral and religious structures. Libertarian governments tend to have very few limits on personal behavior, beliefs, and actions. Authoritarian governments tend to place more legal limitations on how people behave and comport themselves, are more likely to require a state religion with adherence (or to prohibit religion, think USSR secularism), etc. To oversimplify, libertarian views tend to focus on restricting what the government is allowed to do, where authoritarian views tend to focus on requiring what citizens must do.

These two sliding scales have been more or less established for a while now. Over the past few years, I've started to think we need another scale, orthogonal to those two: Conservative versus Progressive. This has less to do with the direction of economic or social policy, and more to do with the rate of change and extremity of change of policies being put in place.

To me, the US is generally somewhat right economically, and fairly libertarian socially. We're not at the far end of either of those scales. And it's not a fixed position by any means. But generally, we have fewer and more generous regulations, taxes, and wealth restraints than other countries. Monaco might be arguably more right than the US economically... but it's a tough call because while they have no taxes on personal income, capital gains, inheritance, or wealth, they do have fairly tight government oversight of businesses. North Korea is far more left than the US in terms of economic policy - pretty much any planned economy where the government controls all aspects of income, money, and business endeavors is far left. We also have fairly high degree of individual freedoms compared to other countries, we have fairly well-established property rights, considerably limitations on how much the federal government is allowed to interfere in your life, separation of church and state, self-defense protections, and many other liberties. Switzerland is arguably more libertarian than the US. China is far more authoritarian, especially when you consider social credit scores and similar restraints on personal behavior. Any theocracy will be extremely authoritarian.

I've come to think that historically US republicans have been moderate right and US democrats have been moderate left. The degree of regulatory authority given the government, the amount of control over economics, and the level of taxation have been a significant divide between the two parties for a century. But they aren't as clearly divided when it comes to liberty and authority - they've flip-flopped many times in general, and each current party holds strong authoritarian views on some topics and strong libertarian views on others.

Right now... conservative versus progressive seems to me to be the strongest divide. Republicans are mostly (not completely) in the camp of "don't change things" and Democrats are mostly (not completely) in the camp of "change many things a whole lot". Most normal humans in the US (of which IIDB is not at all representative) tend to be moderately conservative (not opposed to change, but want to take it slow most of the time), moderately libertarian (do your own thing as long as you aren't hurting others), and moderately left (we need to fund the government and social policies, but don't get greedy about it).

IIRC, most of the long-term members on IIDB skew left-libertarian, but tend to be more left than the general population. I view myself as classically liberal - moderately left on economic policy, middling libertarian, and just slightly on the conservative side of the rate of change - I want to take it slow and make sure it works, especially when a bit change has a risk of causing harm that might be very difficult to recover from. A few of the members here are very strongly progressive, and far more left than I am... and they have a weird social approach that seems to be extremely authoritarian about forcing some liberties into place and I really struggle to make sense of that.
 
By fiscally conservative I mean there are limits on government s[ending. That is true of capitalist, socialist, or communist. There is als economics.

Which is why I think people turning to socialism see it a a kind of panacea. Which it is not.


When Bernie Sanders would say something should be 'free' it is not really free. Somebody has to produce and support it. and be compensated.

Washington state and Seattle chronically have large budget shortfalls. Yet continue to expand government and increase social spending.

America from the start was a great merriment in liberall decency. Self rule by the people. It spears to be failing.
 
"Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité" (Liberty, Equality, Fraternity) is the official national motto of France. Rooted in the ideals of the French Revolution, it defines the core values of the French Republic and is prominently displayed on public buildings like town halls and schools.

How does it work on the scale of hundreds of millions to billions of people?
Yes, France is facing severe financial and political strain over its social program spending. Social security, healthcare, and pensions make up over 57% of France's economic output (GDP), driving a massive national budget deficit and warnings from auditors about a potential loss of control over public funds.
 
How does it work on the scale of hundreds of millions to billions of people?
Well… eventually you end up with lots of corrupt kleptocrats.
I’ve long noted the inverse relationship between population size and how close the population’s government is to becoming a kleptocracy.
Democracy works great if the tribe can all sit around one campfire. But as the tribe size grows, democracy can only forestall the result, it cannot eliminate the process.
We’re already at the point where billionaires own SCOTUS Justices and Congress-critters, plus a special bonus greedy moron pseudo president, and most of the media.
If we dig out of this significantly during my lifetime, I will probably die of surprise.
 
I’m social liberal; fiscally conservative.
But money is needed to fund social programs. How do you square that?
We need a more egalitarian society, not “social programs”. You can’t buy compassion, empathy or equality.
Money will help you fake it though.

Exactly. Maybe I'm getting grumpy in my old age, but I have zero confidence that government can make society more egalitarian. Zero. Government can redistribute resources. And they can increase the safety net for many. But government will never guaranty equality of outcomes because it can’t eliminate differences in talent, motivation, personality, risk‑taking, or luck.
 
I’m social liberal; fiscally conservative.
But money is needed to fund social programs. How do you square that?
We need a more egalitarian society, not “social programs”. You can’t buy compassion, empathy or equality.
Money will help you fake it though.

Exactly. Maybe I'm getting grumpy in my old age, but I have zero confidence that government can make society more egalitarian. Zero. Government can redistribute resources. And they can increase the safety net for many. But government will never guaranty equality of outcomes because it can’t eliminate differences in talent, motivation, personality, risk‑taking, or luck.
In Australia we have the thinking that once a social program is implemented it is impossible to kill. It can be modified but not eliminated. So there is always money spent on program X regardless of whether it is necessary or even doing its job. So the money being spent on programs always increases.
Doubtless the US has a similar problem as the UK, NZ etc.
 
With the rise of Trump the question years back became can liberalism survive?

He started a war with Iran without consulting congress or allies. The late Graham and others argued POTUS has an unquestioned right to start a war.

No pushback from the right. Now Trump threatened to bomb our ally Oman. He appears to be udercuttingSouth Korea as punishment for not helping in the war.

Pre WWII stuff.

Can western liberal democracy survive?
 

The 18th-century Anglo-Irish statesman Edmund Burke, who opposed the French Revolution but supported the American Revolution, is credited as one of the forefathers of Western conservative thought in the 1790s ...
So people say. Burke was a Whig; the Whig party evolved into the Liberal Party. He spent his political career fighting the Tories; the Tory party evolved into the Conservative Party.
Sure; but then in Australia the Liberal Party evolved into the conservative party (while keeping their name), and then imploded due to a split over environmental policy, which the party leaders wanted to be conservative, while the traditional Liberal voters (who are all conservatives) wanted a more liberal policy.

Clearly it's all rather complicated. Party names are a poor guide, conservatism is not necessarily conserved, and within any given party is inconsistent across different policy areas at almost every level.

I often see people describing themselves as "socially liberal but financially conservative" (or vice-versa), and I suspect that if one were to drill down, one might well find that each of these subsets also contains a mix of liberal and conservative sub-subsets, for many voters.

The labels "liberal", "conservative", and even "radical" are all pretty woolly, and their descriptive value at the political party level is OK for broad-brush discussions, but rapidly wanes as one looks into a given voter's (or politician's) specific policy stances on a detailed level.

It's easier to say "I am a conservative" than it is to say (for example) "I am a conservative with regards to fiscal, defence, education and hospitals policy, and a liberal regards to monetary, environmental, overseas aid, immigration and community health policy". The latter is far more informative, but is unwieldy; And many (most) voters have a lazy tendency to skip the detail, and vote according to an arbitrary and tautological fandom for a particular label "I vote Labor because I am a lifelong Labor voter, and I support Leeds United because I am a lifelong Leeds United supporter".

Thus the labels "liberal" and "conservative" become barely meaningful for most people, most of the time, and while they do have their uses, they are in many cases a cause of more confusion and misunderstanding than they clear up.
 
I’m social liberal; fiscally conservative.
But money is needed to fund social programs. How do you square that?
We need a more egalitarian society, not “social programs”. You can’t buy compassion, empathy or equality.
Altruism can lead us there. Having charitable programs in place, however they are derived benefits not only the needy but the volunteer. Government, local and national can support and hold accountable charitable organizations.

Cynicism that a problem cannot be solved or at least ameliorated or that government cannot be a part of the solution is a dangerous way of thinking. It brings about disengagement in political and civic duty which is a cancer on society. Sitting around, pissing and moaning that everything is hopeless will surely get the cynic exactly what they expect.
 
I’ve long noted the inverse relationship between population size and how close the population’s government is to becoming a kleptocracy.
Democracy works great if the tribe can all sit around one campfire. But as the tribe size grows, democracy can only forestall the result, it cannot eliminate the process.
You're not wrong, really. But what alternative is there? Authoritarian regimes certainly don't fare better.
 
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