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Because Trump is looking to use it in a manner that is not in Europe's interest.
What is 'that' way?
Russia is no more USSR, European countries have not realized this. We find a good friend in Russia.
Let us see if there will be an SU-57 deal (though permission to purchase 114 Rafale jets has been given, USD 39 billion). We prefer deals with some manufacturing in India or transfer of technology.
ROFLMFAO.
You are welcome. That is a good exercise. Rolling on whatever and laughing. Yoga.

rolling.jpg
iu
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERSgDNskBMk, https://www.goodnet.org/articles/laughing-yoga-benefits-to-lift-your-mood, https://www.awesomefoundation.org/ru/projects/30313-miami-laughfest-laughter-yoga-in-miami

22 Arab League foreign ministers (or officers) meet in Delhi for 2 days starting 31 January.
 
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if your world domination isn't profitable you will, eventually, stop being dominant.
...whereas, if it is profitable, you will also, eventually, stop being dominant.


How do you mean? Have you got an example from history?


Meanwhile, you can live well, or poorly; And if you sole focus is profitability and economics, you will live poorly.

I can't follow your logic

Austerity has been the watchword in the UK since the early '00s, and has been as brilliant a success in helping the UK recover from the GFC as the Smoot-Hawley Tarrif Act was at helping the US recover from the Wall Street Crash.

Isn't just "austerity" code for "reigning in unsustainable and idiotic socialist schemes"?

One of the problem's with the UK is that since the 50'ies the government put policies in place that kept coal mining town's from dying even though we'd moved away from a world powered primarily by coal. Thatcher broke the miners union and fixed the problem.


There's many examples of this. Pinochet in Chile broke the socialists grip on power and now Chile has South Americas healthiest economy. I'm not condoning Pinochet's methods. But it worked. Thatcher was also a horrible person
 
if your world domination isn't profitable you will, eventually, stop being dominant.
...whereas, if it is profitable, you will also, eventually, stop being dominant.


How do you mean? Have you got an example from history?
Pretty much all of history is my example.

Do you have an example of any global hegemon that has NOT fallen from the number one spot?

Lasting a century as top dog is rare.
Meanwhile, you can live well, or poorly; And if you sole focus is profitability and economics, you will live poorly.

I can't follow your logic
You can get rich by living on dogfood, but what is the point of being rich if you have to eat dogfood?
Austerity has been the watchword in the UK since the early '00s, and has been as brilliant a success in helping the UK recover from the GFC as the Smoot-Hawley Tarrif Act was at helping the US recover from the Wall Street Crash.

Isn't just "austerity" code for "reigning in unsustainable and idiotic socialist schemes"?
No, it is code for not letting anyone ever borrow money for anything.

Which is a truly stupid way to run anything.

The hallmark of austerity is the balanced budget. Couple that with the insane idea that cutting tax rates will increase total tax revenues, and you have a recipe for disaster.
One of the problem's with the UK is that since the 50'ies the government put policies in place that kept coal mining town's from dying even though we'd moved away from a world powered primarily by coal. Thatcher broke the miners union and fixed the problem.
Mate, the miner's strike was one of the first political events that directly affected me at an age where I could understand it. I lived through it. Your one paragraph summary is an utter travesty and reflects none of the reality, other than that Thatcher set out to break the NUM, and succeeded.

She had to destroy the coal industry to do it, like the US Marines destroying Vietnamese villages to "save" them from communism.

During and after the strike, the UK imported German coal at nearly three times the cost delivered to the power stations; And the UK "moved away from a world powered primarily by coal" AFTER the strike (about two decades after).

I remember the USSR sent food aid to the miners. They needed it. I spent a lot of time collecting and distributing food to miners and their families, and their situation was truly dire.

I also remember looking for work in Yorkshire in 1988 and being shortlisted onto a list of two hundred applicants - for one job. That was after they axed every applicant who didn't precisely meet every single criterion in the job ad.


There's many examples of this. Pinochet in Chile broke the socialists grip on power and now Chile has South Americas healthiest economy. I'm not condoning Pinochet's methods. But it worked. Thatcher was also a horrible person
You don't know the half of it.

And "it worked" depends on your criterion for success. Starving children isn't on my list of success criteria.
 
if your world domination isn't profitable you will, eventually, stop being dominant.
...whereas, if it is profitable, you will also, eventually, stop being dominant.


How do you mean? Have you got an example from history?
Pretty much all of history is my example.

Do you have an example of any global hegemon that has NOT fallen from the number one spot?

Lasting a century as top dog is rare.

I think you're equating human common foibles with some sort of Marxist/structuralist law of inevitable decline.

The field of economics was created to study precisely this. The rules of empire follows some pretty standard rules.

1. There's a technological or social innovation.

2. A group manages to exploit this innovation to dominate it's neighbours. This is usually down to geography, ie, this group is better situated to take advantage of this innovation.

3. The group creates a kingdom and then an empire. So first dominates it's own ethnic group, and then other ethnic groups. Yes, I am aware this is a bit anacronistic when pushed back in time, but I think it works in general.

4. The culture starts inventing myths and explanations about their exeptionalism. Downplaying the actual factor or factors that brought them to power and allowed them to stay in power. While also ignoring innovating. Giving an upper hand to non dominant cultures giving them a chance to challenge and overtake.

Example: For republican Rome the social innovation was to make every citizen a stakeholder in the state which made them more willing to sacrifice themselves for the glory of Rome, which made the Roman legions more willing to keep fighting even when having taken huge casualities. Their enemy empires were abandonded the moment it started going south.

5. The culture starts investing heavily in things that do not keep the empire stable or the ruling elite in power. Eventually it shakes itself apart.

Rome lasted over a thousand years. Because it kept innovating. That's what the civil wars were about. They were essentially bloody elections. The people felt empowered and were always quit to revolt if unhappy. This btw is the historian Tom Holland's theory to why Rome lasted as long as it did. Also Anthony Kaldelis.

What eventually killed Rome was that the barbarians learned from Rome and copied their methods, diluting Rome's upper hand. When the power differences are smaller then it takes less to disrupt it. Which is why, towards the end it became harder and harder to keep it together. If the bubonic plague hadn't come in 541 the Roman empire would likely still be a country dominating east Europe and the Middle-East.

The genius of liberal democracy and free market capitalism is that it's a system with inbuilt regular revolutions and a economic system that continually push towards innovation. Soon after our culture starts getting delusional about why it all works, the market will crash.

What happened after England dominated the world with the British empire wasn't that Britain did anything wrong. It was simply that other cultures started copying Britain. When everyone is following the winning recipe then geography kicks in. USA is bigger than the UK and has oil. So while the UK didn't decline, it lost it's top spot. It lost it's relative dominance without doing anything wrong. That's a win win for everyone.

China now, is a likely contender to overtake everyone else, simply based on that it can copy the west while sitting on a geography that has put China on top in Asia for 10 000 years. That's a good run. India is a bit weak on natural resources. But once their thorium programme gets up and running, they're also in the race for the top spot .

I don't think the decline of dominant civilisations is inevitable. The winner will always be the most cynical and humble culture. USA wins on cynicism. But fails on humility. Which gives an opening to China and India.





Meanwhile, you can live well, or poorly; And if you sole focus is profitability and economics, you will live poorly.

I can't follow your logic
You can get rich by living on dogfood, but what is the point of being rich if you have to eat dogfood?

I still can't follow your logic. Then we should push for profitability so that nobody needs to eat dogfood?

You are aware that pushing for profitability generally means to make the economic value chain more efficient, ie everyone wins? You sound a bit zero sum Marxist now. Are you?


Austerity has been the watchword in the UK since the early '00s, and has been as brilliant a success in helping the UK recover from the GFC as the Smoot-Hawley Tarrif Act was at helping the US recover from the Wall Street Crash.

Isn't just "austerity" code for "reigning in unsustainable and idiotic socialist schemes"?
No, it is code for not letting anyone ever borrow money for anything.

Which is a truly stupid way to run anything.

The hallmark of austerity is the balanced budget. Couple that with the insane idea that cutting tax rates will increase total tax revenues, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Austerity isn't equated with Reaganomics. Austerity just means that we stop buying things we can't afford.

The logical mistake, we on the left, often do is that we see social welfare as a human right, and not what it is, a luxury. Social welfare should be seen as a luxury we can splurge on if and when we are taking care of the economy. Leftists often skip how we're supposed to pay for welfare.

Reaganomics works great for an economy that has been mismanaged for a long time, and what that country needs, more than anything is that the state just gets out of the way of commerce. Worked awesome in the UK under Thatcher and for Chile under Pinochet. Didn't deliver in USA. Because USA, at the time, was already an economy in excellent shape.

One of the problem's with the UK is that since the 50'ies the government put policies in place that kept coal mining town's from dying even though we'd moved away from a world powered primarily by coal. Thatcher broke the miners union and fixed the problem.
Mate, the miner's strike was one of the first political events that directly affected me at an age where I could understand it. I lived through it. Your one paragraph summary is an utter travesty and reflects none of the reality, other than that Thatcher set out to break the NUM, and succeeded.

She had to destroy the coal industry to do it, like the US Marines destroying Vietnamese villages to "save" them from communism.

During and after the strike, the UK imported German coal at nearly three times the cost delivered to the power stations; And the UK "moved away from a world powered primarily by coal" AFTER the strike (about two decades after).

I remember the USSR sent food aid to the miners. They needed it. I spent a lot of time collecting and distributing food to miners and their families, and their situation was truly dire.

I also remember looking for work in Yorkshire in 1988 and being shortlisted onto a list of two hundred applicants - for one job. That was after they axed every applicant who didn't precisely meet every single criterion in the job ad.


There's many examples of this. Pinochet in Chile broke the socialists grip on power and now Chile has South Americas healthiest economy. I'm not condoning Pinochet's methods. But it worked. Thatcher was also a horrible person
You don't know the half of it.

And "it worked" depends on your criterion for success. Starving children isn't on my list of success criteria.

With "it worked" means that unsustainable businesses die and those workers (and their decendants) are freed up to work elsewhere.

I think it did. Are you arguing against that?
 
With "it worked" means that unsustainable businesses die and those workers (and their decendants) are freed up to work elsewhere.

I think it did. Are you arguing against that?
Yes. I am arguing against that. Not against the fact that it happened, but against your unquestioned assumption that the one measure you have chosen is the best, most appropriate, and even the only important criterion for success.

IMG_1369.jpeg

And someone who has been trained since primary school to be a coal miner; Who lives in a town that exists only because of the coal it sits on; Who knows a huge amount of detailed arcana to do with mining coal, coal mine safety, coal mine ventilation, and coal mine machinery - he cannot be "freed up to work elsewhere", he just becomes unemployed and unemployable through no fault of his own.

He was raised to do one specific job. He was told that that job was critically important to the nation, who were grateful for his service. And then one day the Prime Minister decided to destroy the environment in which he was raised, and instead of helping him to cope with the demolition of his entire way of life, and his entire community, accused him of being lazy and worthless for not being a rich stockbroker like all her wealthy friends.

And told him that her wanton destruction of his entire life was actually doing him a grand favour for which he should be everso grateful, because he has been "freed up to work elsewhere".
 
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With "it worked" means that unsustainable businesses die and those workers (and their decendants) are freed up to work elsewhere.

I think it did. Are you arguing against that?
Yes. I am arguing against that. Not against the fact that it happened, but against your unquestioned assumption that the one measure you have chosen is the best, most appropriate, and even the only important criterion for success.

View attachment 53522

And someone who has been trained since primary school to be a coal miner; Who lives in a town that exists only because of the coal it sits on; Who knows a huge amount of detailed arcana to do with mining coal, coal mine safety, coal mine ventilation, and coal mine machinery - he cannot be "freed up to work elsewhere", he just becomes unemployed and unemployable through no fault of his own.

He was raised to do one specific job. He was told that that job was critically important to the nation, who were grateful for his service. And then one day the Prime Minister decided to destroy the environment in which he was raised, and instead of helping him to cope with the demolition of his entire way of life, and his entire community, accused him of being lazy and worthless for not being a rich stockbroker like all her wealthy friends.

And told him that her wanton destruction of his entire life was actually doing him a grand favour for which he should be everso grateful, because he has been "freed up to work elsewhere".

Let's agree to disagree.

Yes, those communities needed to be destroyed.

The UK is still struggling financially now. But better than they were at the brink of destruction in the 1970'ies. Labour had ruined the British economy. Are you also arguing against that?
 
With "it worked" means that unsustainable businesses die and those workers (and their decendants) are freed up to work elsewhere.

I think it did. Are you arguing against that?
Yes. I am arguing against that. Not against the fact that it happened, but against your unquestioned assumption that the one measure you have chosen is the best, most appropriate, and even the only important criterion for success.

View attachment 53522

And someone who has been trained since primary school to be a coal miner; Who lives in a town that exists only because of the coal it sits on; Who knows a huge amount of detailed arcana to do with mining coal, coal mine safety, coal mine ventilation, and coal mine machinery - he cannot be "freed up to work elsewhere", he just becomes unemployed and unemployable through no fault of his own.

He was raised to do one specific job. He was told that that job was critically important to the nation, who were grateful for his service. And then one day the Prime Minister decided to destroy the environment in which he was raised, and instead of helping him to cope with the demolition of his entire way of life, and his entire community, accused him of being lazy and worthless for not being a rich stockbroker like all her wealthy friends.

And told him that her wanton destruction of his entire life was actually doing him a grand favour for which he should be everso grateful, because he has been "freed up to work elsewhere".

Let's agree to disagree.

Yes, those communities needed to be destroyed.

The UK is still struggling financially now.
Everyone is struggling. It has never been easy. While things were best in the late 90s, it isn't that bad right now... I mean other than Trump apparently trying to destroy the global economy.

The biggest trouble people are dealing with overall is this misguided sense of great economic times possibly being static. It isn't. Things are always churning in the economy.
But better than they were at the brink of destruction in the 1970'ies. Labour had ruined the British economy. Are you also arguing against that?
Funny how the US Economy was also have problems in the 70s. Labour must have had long arms.
 
Let's agree to disagree.

Yes, those communities needed to be destroyed.
The industry may have. The communities did not. Many of these people were my friends; They did nothing whatsoever to deserve what was done to them, with malice aforethought, by a leader who didn't care if they and their children starved, as long as some devoutly held political principle was being upheld.

Explain to me how Thatcher is any less a monster than Stalin or Mao here. The only difference is one of scale.
 
The UK is still struggling financially now. But better than they were at the brink of destruction in the 1970'ies. Labour had ruined the British economy. Are you also arguing against that?
Yes, I am. The world economy was in a shambles; Labour were not responsible for the actions of OPEC.

The UK is "still" struggling financially now because of austerity, and of course also because of Brexit (which was in large part a consequence of the misery brought on by austerity. You can't expect an economy to boom without infrastructure spending, and infrastructure spending should be deficit spending.
 
The UK is still struggling financially now. But better than they were at the brink of destruction in the 1970'ies. Labour had ruined the British economy. Are you also arguing against that?
Yes, I am. The world economy was in a shambles; Labour were not responsible for the actions of OPEC.

The UK is "still" struggling financially now because of austerity, and of course also because of Brexit (which was in large part a consequence of the misery brought on by austerity. You can't expect an economy to boom without infrastructure spending, and infrastructure spending should be deficit spending.

Are you blaming Thatcher for Brexit?

There's a tradition among trade unions in central Europe , and of northern Europe of cooperating with the capitalists. The goal is to make the companies strong, so that they can pay out more to the workers.

The Anglo-Saxon tradition of trade unions is that the unions try to fleece the capitalists as much as possible while blocking efficiencies.

These is of course results of our different cultures. But trade unions in USA and England have traditionally just made themselves the enemy of capitalism, as well as enemies of the state. As well as enemies of progress in general.

I think that's what fucked the UK over. What made UK's economy dive bomb after Clement Attlee and his ilk took over. The OPEC crisis impacted the entire west, but not as much as in the UK. If a country breaks in a crisis, it means that it was already stretched pretty thin before this.

I'm pretty left wing, dare I say, socialist. But there's good ways and bad ways to be a socialist. Scandinavia was always more socialist than England, and over here we did it correctly. That's the difference. While I am a socialist, I am not a bleeding heart liberal who accepts my govornment spending money it doesn't have, no matter the degree of suffering. No matter how much people are suffering, if we use the credit card to help people now, we're in a worse position to help people in the future. That's what British socialist struggled with understanding. But somethering socialists over here understood.

By the time Thatcher came along her options were to go in hard or let the UK turn into Portugal. Thanks to her preceding weak prime ministers she had no other realistic option imho
 
Are you blaming Thatcher for Brexit?
No. I am partially blaming austerity for Brexit. As a UK policy it didn't arise until the 2008 GFC, long after Thatcher, who was a massive supporter of European integration, and would likely have been horrified by brexit.

Are you just skimming my posts for 'gotchas', without trying to comprehend them? If so, further discussion is futile.
 
What made UK's economy dive bomb after Clement Attlee and his ilk took over.
It took twenty five years of contrarian prosperity, which people still look back on as the best years of the post-war economy, for his policies to start having an impact?

The more you know...

:rolleyesa:
 
No matter how much people are suffering, if we use the credit card to help people now, we're in a worse position to help people in the future.
Not if that borrowing is used to build infrastructure. Infrastructure makes countries more able to do stuff in the future, which is why we should borrow to fund it.

You appear to be arguing against someone who wants the government to borrow money to hand out directly to the poor; As that's not me, and I don't recall reading any such suggestion in this thread, I am wondering why you needed to invent a fictional argument, and credit it to me.
 
Are you blaming Thatcher for Brexit?
No. I am partially blaming austerity for Brexit. As a UK policy it didn't arise until the 2008 GFC, long after Thatcher, who was a massive supporter of European integration, and would likely have been horrified by brexit.

Are you just skimming my posts for 'gotchas', without trying to comprehend them? If so, further discussion is futile.
Austerity or a blitheringly ignorant voter base that didn't know what they were voting on, idiots like Boris promising shit they knew wouldn't happen if it passed, and some of the most feckless leadership in the UK since Chamberlin, where the PM allowed a referendum on something the PM was wholly against and then the party in general allowing a mere majority vote to force a dissolution from the EU when the referendum lacked any authority to force the matter in the first place.
 
Are you blaming Thatcher for Brexit?
No. I am partially blaming austerity for Brexit. As a UK policy it didn't arise until the 2008 GFC, long after Thatcher, who was a massive supporter of European integration, and would likely have been horrified by brexit.

Are you just skimming my posts for 'gotchas', without trying to comprehend them? If so, further discussion is futile.
Austerity or a blitheringly ignorant voter base that didn't know what they were voting on, idiots like Boris promising shit they knew wouldn't happen if it passed, and some of the most feckless leadership in the UK since Chamberlin, where the PM allowed a referendum on something the PM was wholly against and then the party in general allowing a mere majority vote to force a dissolution from the EU when the referendum lacked any authority to force the matter in the first place.
The whole thing was very close indeed; The vote would have almost certainly been to remain if it hadn't rained in London on the day of the poll, which very slightly reduced turnout in the capital.

So it's not possible to identify a single thing that was to blame; just a stack of contributing factors, any one of which could have tipped the balance.
 
Are you blaming Thatcher for Brexit?
No. I am partially blaming austerity for Brexit. As a UK policy it didn't arise until the 2008 GFC, long after Thatcher, who was a massive supporter of European integration, and would likely have been horrified by brexit.

Are you just skimming my posts for 'gotchas', without trying to comprehend them? If so, further discussion is futile.
Austerity or a blitheringly ignorant voter base that didn't know what they were voting on, idiots like Boris promising shit they knew wouldn't happen if it passed, and some of the most feckless leadership in the UK since Chamberlin, where the PM allowed a referendum on something the PM was wholly against and then the party in general allowing a mere majority vote to force a dissolution from the EU when the referendum lacked any authority to force the matter in the first place.
The whole thing was very close indeed; The vote would have almost certainly been to remain if it hadn't rained in London on the day of the poll, which very slightly reduced turnout in the capital.

So it's not possible to identify a single thing that was to blame; just a stack of contributing factors, any one of which could have tipped the balance.
My main point was Brexit happened because of far-right, anti-Europe stupidity that needlessly treated the vote as an infallible holy command from God. It happened because idiots like Boris Johnson were given power.
 
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