Breakdown In Civil Order

[Politesse]

Do you mean to suggest that this measure would have been a good idea?



Even if it somehow survived legal review after being passed, how... how in god's own name would that have worked? A ballot measure every time the tax code needs to be changed in any way? It'd be a fucking circus. A circus owned by Tesla and Nvidia.

And no, you can't just over-write the entire state constitution with a ballot measure, it would never have stood up in court anyway. You want a revised constitution, there's a process for that.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is a law Sb132? Passed in California, it’s not a “right” that men who don a dress and slap on some lipstick get to bunk in with the women prisoners.

Thanks for attempting to shift my argument, but that's not what I'm discussing. I'm stating that cisgender men aren't pretending to be transgender in large numbers to violate women.

So what if the number doesn’t reach your arbitrary threshold? Who are you to decide what number is acceptable to the women that are affected by this nonsense?

I don't believe a number can be selected in isolation.

Rather, it should be compared to other related threats. A good starting point would be what percent of attacks on women in women's spaces are due to trans individuals. Compare to those simply in drag (disguise, but with no intent to actually be female) and those who didn't hide.

 

[Gospel]

Regardless of Bryson's gender identity, a person convicted of raping women should not be placed in a women's prison.

A cis-woman who was convicted of raping another woman should be placed in a men's prison?

So instead of addressing my proposal by stating that our prison system isn't run in a way that can accommodate it, you'd rather put words in my mouth. What incentive do I have to expand on my ideas with you if your intention seems to be to twist my words into the worst possible interpretation?

 

[Gospel]

Anyhow ; several states have seen jail and prison closures or consolidations. This is due to factors like fewer inmates, budget limitations, and evolving criminal justice policies. Bail reform, for example, has demonstrably lowered jail populations in some states. BTW private prisons aim for profit, mostly by keeping or raising inmate numbers.

While crafting a criminal justice system that aligns with my idea requires careful policy and contract design, it's achievable. The current challenge lies not in the system's capacity, but in the lack of political will to move beyond the binary male/female classification. It should also take into consideration the kind of crime committed. Just as citizens are judged by a jury of their peers it seems reasonable that they be jailed with their peers as well.

Maybe my idea is impossible, but my intention is not to harm women, despite some members of this forum trying to distort my opinion to fit that misconception.

 

[Jarhyn]

Anyhow ; several states have seen jail and prison closures or consolidations. This is due to factors like fewer inmates, budget limitations, and evolving criminal justice policies. Bail reform, for example, has demonstrably lowered jail populations in some states. BTW private prisons aim for profit, mostly by keeping or raising inmate numbers.

While crafting a criminal justice system that aligns with my idea requires careful policy and contract design, it's achievable. The current challenge lies not in the system's capacity, but in the lack of political will to move beyond the binary male/female classification. It should also take into consideration the kind of crime committed. Just as citizens are judged by a jury of their peers it seems reasonable that they be jailed with their peers as well.

Maybe my idea is impossible, but my intention is not to harm women, despite some members of this forum trying to distort my opinion to fit that misconception.

I don't think your idea is impossible. It might take some work and a long term plan involving putting some pretty heavy burdens on the people who profiteered from prisons for so long, but it's definitely possible.

The reality is that we can and should start by moving sex offenders to a third estate with new facilities designed by competent people for the sake of actually accomplishing this separation.

We could start by mandating each state build a facility for housing sex offenders securely and selecting a set of federal standards for such facilities for the sake of protecting inmates from each other.

It would, as you say, require careful policy and administration. This is entirely possible, and can start at the point of "new prisoner transfers".

And the burden of being housed in such a facility would naturally act as a reason not to earn a trip there within the existing prisons.

At some point we probably want to specialize the facilities themselves, but one step at a time...

 

[Gospel]

I'd also like to add that for those who perceive themselves as champions for women and want to protect women from transgender females, wouldn't it make more sense to assist transgender females by helping to establish support for them so that they aren't placed in spaces where they don't belong, such as women's spaces?

Have you ever considered that they might not want to be in those spaces, but find them a better option than being placed with cisgender males?

Have you ever considered that your rigid binary male/female checkboxes are what's actually harming women?

I'm not saying it's true, just tossing an idea out there.

 

[Gospel]

We could start by mandating each state build a facility for housing sex offenders securely and selecting a set of federal standards for such facilities for the sake of protecting inmates from each other.

It would, as you say, require careful policy and administration. This is entirely possible, and can start at the point of "new prisoner transfers".

Admittedly, this is beyond my expertise. I lack the knowledge and academic support to fully map out how it would work, if it even can. However, it's better than sitting around accusing people of not caring about women and doing nothing but pushing a status quo that clearly isn't working and creates the very situations some are complaining about.

 

[TSwizzle]

I'd also like to add that for those who perceive themselves as champions for women and want to protect women from transgender females, wouldn't it make more sense to assist transgender females by helping to establish support for them so that they aren't placed in spaces where they don't belong, such as women's spaces?

"The champions for women"?! It is actual women, the folks born with vaginas that have been kicking up a stink about this only to be screamed at, mostly by men or ex men that they are bigots and terfs and to STFU while they get left in the dust in sporting events etc.

 

[Jarhyn]

[The] status quo... clearly isn't working and creates the very situations some are complaining about.

Generally this leads me to believe that the complaints are less about the problematic status quo and more about wanting to have a convenient target for complaints; that it really is more about the moral grandstander pointing their fingers (one obvious finger pointed at the world and three hidden fingers pointed back at themselves).

 

[Gospel]

I'd also like to add that for those who perceive themselves as champions for women and want to protect women from transgender females, wouldn't it make more sense to assist transgender females by helping to establish support for them so that they aren't placed in spaces where they don't belong, such as women's spaces?

"The champions for women"?! It is actual women, the folks born with vaginas that have been kicking up a stink about this only to be screamed at, mostly by men or ex men that they are bigots and terfs and to STFU while they get left in the dust in sporting events etc.

Women are not a monolithic group, just as men aren't. I can't represent all men any more than any woman (or group of women) can speak for all women. Can we move past these unproductive deflections and genuinely discuss this issue?

Don't you agree that the binary male/female system in our prisons contributes to endangering women? I understand you don't believe transgender women are real, but there are legislators in your state who do, and legislation in place to accommodate them. The issue I see here is the prison system is not run in a way that works with the legislation. That's the point I'm trying to make. If you'd rather ignore this issue and avoid a meaningful discussion, please just say so instead of continuing to deflect.

 

[TSwizzle]

I'd also like to add that for those who perceive themselves as champions for women and want to protect women from transgender females, wouldn't it make more sense to assist transgender females by helping to establish support for them so that they aren't placed in spaces where they don't belong, such as women's spaces?

"The champions for women"?! It is actual women, the folks born with vaginas that have been kicking up a stink about this only to be screamed at, mostly by men or ex men that they are bigots and terfs and to STFU while they get left in the dust in sporting events etc.

{snip}. Can we move past these unproductive deflections and genuinely discuss this issue?

"unproductive deflections" is just another way of telling women (bigots and TERFS) to STFU while the ex-men hoover up the women's prizes.

Don't you agree that the binary male/female system in our prisons contributes to endangering women?

When you put men in women's prisons, sure.

 

[Gospel]

"unproductive deflections" is just another way of telling women (bigots and TERFS) to STFU while the ex-men hoover up the women's prizes.

That's your opinion as a male, and I, as a male, disagree. This shows that men aren't monolithic. Am I telling you to stay quiet and taking all the benefits? No. Regarding sports, if that's what you're referring to, I've previously stated that, just as we have men's sports, women's sports, and disability sports, we should also have transgender male and female sports, provided there is enough demand from the community. I have transgender friends who strongly disagree with me on this and others who find it an interesting prospect. But you might not remember me saying that, as you're too busy forming your own assumptions about my opinions.

 

[Jarhyn]

"unproductive deflections" is just another way of telling women (bigots and TERFS) to STFU while the ex-men hoover up the women's prizes.

That's your opinion as a male, and I, as a male, disagree. This shows that men aren't monolithic. Am I telling you to stay quiet and taking all the benefits? No. Regarding sports, if that's what you're referring to, I've previously stated that, just as we have men's sports, women's sports, and disability sports, we should also have transgender male and female sports, provided there is enough demand from the community. I have transgender friends who strongly disagree with me on this and others who find it an interesting prospect. But you might not remember me saying that, as you're too busy forming your own assumptions about my opinions.

To be fair, I think it would be more appropriate to have sports (at least on the "back end") restricted on lines of how much performance enhancing chemicals the athletes have consumed recently (or ever, depending on the context).

This might place trans people in the testosterone-heavy league for some or all of their career, and I'm fine with that.

I just woud prefer that the little girl who grows up with blockers and then later HRT have a place in sports with her peers.

The real issue I find is that this is all a smokescreen for imposing policies that prevent her from having any way at all in whether she gets that childhood, adolescence, and adult body as is her wont... Often imposed by people who are bitter they didn't get that choice themselves.

 

[Gospel]

"unproductive deflections" is just another way of telling women (bigots and TERFS) to STFU while the ex-men hoover up the women's prizes.

That's your opinion as a male, and I, as a male, disagree. This shows that men aren't monolithic. Am I telling you to stay quiet and taking all the benefits? No. Regarding sports, if that's what you're referring to, I've previously stated that, just as we have men's sports, women's sports, and disability sports, we should also have transgender male and female sports, provided there is enough demand from the community. I have transgender friends who strongly disagree with me on this and others who find it an interesting prospect. But you might not remember me saying that, as you're too busy forming your own assumptions about my opinions.

To be fair, I think it would be more appropriate to have sports (at least on the "back end") restricted on lines of how much performance enhancing chemicals the athletes have consumed recently (or ever, depending on the context).

This might place trans people in the testosterone-heavy league for some or all of their career, and I'm fine with that.

I just woud prefer that the little girl who grows up with blockers and then later HRT have a place in sports with her peers.

The real issue I find is that this is all a smokescreen for imposing policies that prevent her from having any way at all in whether she gets that childhood, adolescence, and adult body as is her wont... Often imposed by people who are bitter they didn't get that choice themselves.

I respect your opinion. I don't have personal experience with puberty blockers and tend to trust organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Endocrine Society on such matters. Personally, I would prefer to avoid giving my child medication unless absolutely necessary. This isn't a judgment on other parents' choices or on puberty blockers themselves. I'm just a old school nigga that believes in providing strong support for my children and relying on medical treatment as a last resort or in emergencies, following professional advice.

My son came forward at the age of 17 and expressed a desire to transition to female. His mother, who is a evangelical Christian (the looney type), is in complete denial but remains appropriately supportive. My son (future daughter according to him) hasn't expressed experiencing dysphoria, nor has such been identified by the professionals. I can't say exactly how well as a parent I'd handle a situation where puberty blockers were necessary, but if not using them became clearly problematic for my child's well-being, I know for certain I would give my approval. His mother? My wife? That's an entirely different story.

 

[Emily Lake]

Let's get serious about what I've said and avoid playing jeopardy. My point is clear: no individual who has raped a woman should be housed with women, regardless of their gender identity. This is a straightforward solution that doesn't require legislation targeting a specific group. Feel free to grind that axe of yours but that's my argument.

My opinion is that prisons should remain separated on the basis of SEX, full stop. If male prisoners with gender identity concerns are at higher risk, then male prisons should enact policies to provide extra protections or separate areas for those at-risk prisoners.

I do not think that any person's subjective, unverifiable, and self-declared mental identity should supersede the material realty of sex.

Keep Prisons Single Sex.

 

[Emily Lake]

I fail to see how rape is made worse by being male on female.

Of course you don't.

 

[Emily Lake]

I fail to see how rape is made worse by being male on female

Arguably rape babies, or fear of them, abound.

Also there's the question of physical ability to force and perpetrate the act.

Then, I don't see how I haven't already answered that with my point about actually requiring substantive transition or your point of taking real measures to actually prevent prison rapes in general.

Up to here, I'm in agreement with you. I don't particularly like your "fear of rape babies" approach, but ignoring the emotive dismissal of female experiences, the rest of it is largely reasonable.

Right now, however, these prison policies do NOT require any substantive transition at all.

I wonder what real "quiet part out loud" goals attach to the desire to "legally define" "woman". Most of the people who want that, I wouldn't trust alone in a room with a child.

This, however, is nothing more than insinuated ad hominem not rooted in reality. And it completely ignores a whole host of attendant concerns that actual women have. This happens a lot with this topic - males and men in general have a tendency to just assume that whatever worries or concerns that women have are unfounded hysterical overreactions that can be ignored out of hand... and then they focus on whether or not the proposed policies make males feel good or not.

 

[Emily Lake]

The reality is that we can and should start by moving sex offenders to a third estate with new facilities designed by competent people for the sake of actually accomplishing this separation.

We could start by mandating each state build a facility for housing sex offenders securely and selecting a set of federal standards for such facilities for the sake of protecting inmates from each other.

I don't think that wholesale removal of all sex offenders to a separate estate is necessarily a good idea. I get where you're coming from, but I think the target victim demographic should be taken into consideration.

Male sex offenders whose target demographic is females should not be housed with females. But it doesn't really matter if they're housed with other males - those aren't the people they target in the first place. On the other hand, male sex offenders who target males seem like they should be housed separately, and that might necessitate isolation or extremely limited interactions. Same general argument for females. The objective is to make sure that sex offenders are not being housed with a captive victim pool.

 

[Emily Lake]

I'd also like to add that for those who perceive themselves as champions for women and want to protect women from transgender females,

Transgender females would be transmen - females who identify as men. I don't think there's any need to provide special protection of females from other females.

But I'm going to assume that when you say "transgender females" what you actually mean are males that identify as women, thus either transgender identified males or transwomen.

wouldn't it make more sense to assist transgender females by helping to establish support for them so that they aren't placed in spaces where they don't belong, such as women's spaces?

A whole lot of women wholeheartedly support third spaces for transwomen. Transwomen and their allies have repeatedly and strongly objected to that proposal. They don't want a separate prison wing - they insist that they must be placed with females in order to affirm their identity, and that placing them in a separate facility from either males or females is a deep insult. They don't want to participate in transgender sports leagues, they insist that they must be allowed to compete against females and that failure to allow them to do so is offensive and transphobic and robs them of their identity. They don't want to have access to separate domestic violence or rape shelters - the insist they must be allowed to use female-specific spaces or else everyone is being a bigot.

The amount of objection to third spaces that has come out of this debate over the past decade-ish is so large, that I (and many other women) are left with the impression that the violation of women's boundaries is a material portion of the goal.

Have you ever considered that they might not want to be in those spaces, but find them a better option than being placed with cisgender males?

I have, and your proposal is not new by over a decade. It's been put forth, and it's been repeatedly rejected as transphobic.

Have you ever considered that your rigid binary male/female checkboxes are what's actually harming women?

Male humans are not female humans, and in this regard, evolution is binary.

Males can dress and present however they wish - I genuinely don't care. Do your thing, and have a blast. I grew up with Poison and Prince and Grace Jones. Gender bending is something I'm all in on. But that social presentation doesn't change a person's actual sex. And the spaces that are separated are done so on the basis of SEX, not the basis of whether or not you like lipstick and heels, nor on the basis of how much affinity you have with a particular sexist stereotype.

 

[Emily Lake]

Don't you agree that the binary male/female system in our prisons contributes to endangering women?

I don't agree with your unstated assumption here, Gospel.

Yes, there are risks to women in prison as prisons are now arranged, just as there are risks to men. But those risks are NOT the result of them being separated on the basis of sex. And the unstated assumption in your comment here is that REMOVING that sex-based separation would REDUCE the risk to women - and I completely disagree with that.

I understand you don't believe transgender women are real

Males who identify as transgender and who view themselves as women exist - they are real, they are not a figment of our collective imagination. On the other hand, males who identify as transgender and view themselves as women are not the same as actual women.

Transwomen are not women, they are transwomen - and that should be perfectly acceptable. There is nothing at all wrong with being a transwoman.