George Zimmerman Arrested On Domestic Violence And Weapons Charge

[EPresence2]

Actually I was referring to "It's more about what the individuals thought they were."

How would we know "what the individuals thought they were" without knowing their actual thoughts? I'm sure you could find examples of many individuals claiming all sorts of abilities that they don't have on social media. But do they actually believe them? And if you were frightened would they believe the same thing about who they were? I know I feel different all the time. Sometimes I am a quite competent, other situations doubting my abilities. What I think I am usually depends upon the circumstances.

So I question anyone's ability to know what another person "thinks they are", especially internet psychologists like ourselves. This is my objection to giving weight of the actual evidence over to: "It's more about what the individuals thought they were." Because there is know way of knowing their thoughts especially at the time of confrontation.

Why bring up all this stuff about stereotypes and black men? I played b-ball a lot growing up and got the stereotype of a white man who can't jump - but I could. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in terms of TM's fighting ability.

So you have evidence of Martin's fighting abilities? You characterized him as an adept fighter with experience, others have characterized him as an expert in hand-to-hand combat, but other then a couple of novice and questionable examples of fighting we have no evidence that he had special abilities or aptitude.

Do you have evidence of his Casper Milktoast status or what he thought of his abilities? Are you claiming he had no experience fighting? And where have I claimed he had special abilities? I'm beginning to think you just like to argue - no surprise there considering our participation on this board.

Do you have evidence of his Casper Milktoast status or what he thought of his abilities?

I've not claimed he was a milquetoast and as pointed out have no special powers that allow me access to his self conception or thoughts. Why someone is trying to argue on the basis of a person's thoughts, which we can never know, is a mystery to me. It like a strange grasping for justification. Even if Martin believed himself to be all those things that have been attributed including formal training in hand-to-hand combat, it does not tell us one iota of how he felt about his abilities when confronted by Zimmerman. From the scale of "I can take this guy out" to "Shit, I am in over my head" we have no possible way of knowing Martin or Zimmerman's thoughts at the time of the confrontation.

Back to the milquetoast, once again I am not stating that Martin was anything of the sort, but we have no evidence of his actual skills as a fighter beyond that of a beginner. Zimmerman we do have evidence and testimony about his experience and abilities, and these can and have been argued.

Yeah, he was rated a 1 on a scale of 1-10 (after MMA training). And how do you know what "they always get away" had to mean? I'm not claiming that Martin was any more than competent in fighting and interested in fighting contests. But it's apparently okay for you and the gang to make the leap from shoving an undercover police officer... to physically detaining a suspect while armed, with police on the way - yet it's not okay to consider the possibility that Martin threw the first punch because "the nigga is still following me." This is basically the second time I've brought this up and I should have left it at that. It's all documented in earlier pages... upon pages. Apparently this issue is an undead horse. :zombie:

P.S. You are seriously indicting yourself and others with the "Why someone is trying to argue on the basis of a person's thoughts, which we can never know, is a mystery to me." Case closed.

 

[Medicine Man]

You have godlike powers to know what these individuals "thought they were"? Because a lot of weak individuals will puff themselves up to be appear to have a some sort of efficacy but feel powerless inside. Also, an individual's feelings and self-concepts change do to situations. We can assume Zimmerman was upset because of his statement that "they get away" and Martin was scared when he asked Zimmerman why he was following him, but even that is uncertain.


So you have evidence of Martin's fighting abilities? You characterized him as an adept fighter with experience, others have characterized him as an expert in hand-to-hand combat, but other then a couple of novice and questionable examples of fighting we have no evidence that he had special abilities or aptitude.

Some folks are naturals and some folks aren't. I'm not claiming either - are you? How do you know Martin's experience would not elevate him up from a milktoast who can't fight at all?

The current evidence does not point to Martin having any special skills. If he did have special skills or knowledge you would have thought one of his friends would have told him "hey great job at the gym" or bragged about his abilities on social media. It probably would have been brought up in court as it would be relevant to the defense of Zimmerman.

Street fighting is not a special skill, but I can testify, getting your ass kicked a couple times is an incredibly effective training technique. One of the first things you learn is to get in the first hit(punch, kick, whatever) and make it count. The only goal of a street fight is to make the other person decide the fight was a very bad idea and to make this decision very quickly. Martin seems to have accomplished that much.

Exactly!!!!

Ol' "Zimmy bit-off more than he could chew....trying to intimidate some young, Black dude...and, ended-up gettin' an ass-kicking'!!!

His ACE was the knowledge that Florida has a looooooooooong history of expecting Cuban-descendents (many-of-whom are cops) doing the White-population's dirty-work, FOR them.....and, keeping Florida's Black-population -CHECK.

I don't believe Zimmy was EVER worried-about any kind o' conviction.

[/CENTER]

 

[Medicine Man]

92 pages, over 900 posts on George Zimmerman? ​

Everything's temporary....

Eventually, Zimmy's gonna get a little too-full o' himself....and, end-up (either) dead or locked-up.

It's what garden-variety punks DO!!

 

[Rhea]

One wonders whether Judge Zimmerman has any contact with these women who decide not to press charges. Either directly or through representatives.

Who is "judge Zimmerman"?

George Zimmerman's father. The guy who got his assault of a police officer charge reduced.

This guy pardon me, "Magistrate"

 

[Rhea]

How about addressing this.

You were writing that in response to a comment that said, "even if he was a jerk or a bully, why does that make death an appropriate response?"

And I don't think you've said anything that changes the obvious answer away from, "it doesn't. Even if he were a jerk or a bully, death is not the appropriate response to that."

I mean, if you look at Zimmerman's own record(s) of violence, does this mean it was appropriate for someone to have shot and killed him, what, SIX different times now?

1. When he punched the undercover cop, should the cop have shot him?
2. When he smashed his wife's tablet and threatened her, should she have been okay shooting him to death for that?
3. When he threw that drunk woman down on the floor - appropriate for her to get up and kill him?
4. When he smashed his girlfriend's glass table, should she have just shot him instead of leaving?
5. When he shouted at that motorist, "I'm going to kill you!" the guy would have been right to pull out a gun and shoot him dead?
6. And when he threw this wine bottle against the wall at his girlfriend, instead of crying and leaving and getting pulled over by the cops, would it have been justifiable, in your mind, for her to just shoot him dead at home, instead?

I don't get your logic.
Yes. Even if Martin had been a jerk or a bully, yes, the shooting/murder was STILL unjustified.
He's a very lucky man that the rest of the world doesn't feel entitled to what he feels entitled to. Yanno? I mean, YOU KNOW!?

(edited to add, although if that first undercover cop had just shot him for being a "dangerous thug," Trayvon Martin would still be alive today.)

And I don't get your logic that equates all those instances of alleged (and convicted) crime both before and after the Martin case with a situation in which Zimmerman was actually in a fight against a person he didn't know with no witnesses as to who started it! You are comparing apples to oranges. And do you believe every allegation you hear about someone? Even if they had pushed an undercover cop who they thought was assaulting a friend? I don't doubt Zimmerman has some serious problems - but I'm also not falling down the slippery slope to hell spawn (=the party line).

We were talking about whether it was justified to shoot someone who threatened you.
All of those people were threatened - by Zimmerman.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Yeah, he was rated a 1 on a scale of 1-10 (after MMA training). And how do you know what "they always get away" had to mean?

You might think that Zimmerman was referring big monied lobbyists in Washington, but considering the context it is safe to assume he was referring to a group of criminals that he suspected Martin to be a part of.

I'm not claiming that Martin was any more than competent in fighting and interested in fighting contests.

You are claiming that he is competent, which could be argued. I wouldn't go that far, but still others have claimed he is a master.

But it's apparently okay for you and the gang to make the leap from shoving an undercover police officer... to physically detaining a suspect while armed, with police on the way

I have made no such leap, so don't characteristic my position as having done so. Zimmerman had no authority to physically detain Martin, and Martin was only suspect in Zimmerman's eyes. Zimmerman has a history of multiple physical aggression against other individuals as an adult.

- yet it's not okay to consider the possibility that Martin threw the first punch because "the nigga is still following me."

First off, how do we know a opening punch was thrown? We know very little about the actual confrontation. Martin could have thrown a punch, Zimmerman could have flying tackled Martin. My position has never been that one side or the other started the altercation. Remember in the situation as we know it: Martin had every right to stand his ground as he had been stalked by a man who refused to identify himself or his intentions. (Source of claim of non-identification: Zimmerman)

This is basically the second time I've brought this up and I should have left it at that. It's all documented in earlier pages... upon pages. Apparently this issue is an undead horse. :zombie:

Well I am sorry if you think that we are arguing who threw the first punch. I have not. This is a something we can never know. (And the reason why the jury did not reach a guilty verdict.)

 

[Derec]

Who is "judge Zimmerman"?

George Zimmerman's father. The guy who got his assault of a police officer charge reduced.

This guy pardon me, "Magistrate"

A retired magistrate from another state. How you imagine he has any influence at all here is quite strange to me.

 

[Rhea]

George Zimmerman's father. The guy who got his assault of a police officer charge reduced.

This guy pardon me, "Magistrate"

A retired magistrate from another state. How you imagine he has any influence at all here is quite strange to me.

I imagine it is strange to you. But not strange to a court at all.

 

[EPresence2]

How about addressing this.

You were writing that in response to a comment that said, "even if he was a jerk or a bully, why does that make death an appropriate response?"

And I don't think you've said anything that changes the obvious answer away from, "it doesn't. Even if he were a jerk or a bully, death is not the appropriate response to that."

I mean, if you look at Zimmerman's own record(s) of violence, does this mean it was appropriate for someone to have shot and killed him, what, SIX different times now?

1. When he punched the undercover cop, should the cop have shot him?
2. When he smashed his wife's tablet and threatened her, should she have been okay shooting him to death for that?
3. When he threw that drunk woman down on the floor - appropriate for her to get up and kill him?
4. When he smashed his girlfriend's glass table, should she have just shot him instead of leaving?
5. When he shouted at that motorist, "I'm going to kill you!" the guy would have been right to pull out a gun and shoot him dead?
6. And when he threw this wine bottle against the wall at his girlfriend, instead of crying and leaving and getting pulled over by the cops, would it have been justifiable, in your mind, for her to just shoot him dead at home, instead?

I don't get your logic.
Yes. Even if Martin had been a jerk or a bully, yes, the shooting/murder was STILL unjustified.
He's a very lucky man that the rest of the world doesn't feel entitled to what he feels entitled to. Yanno? I mean, YOU KNOW!?

(edited to add, although if that first undercover cop had just shot him for being a "dangerous thug," Trayvon Martin would still be alive today.)

And I don't get your logic that equates all those instances of alleged (and convicted) crime both before and after the Martin case with a situation in which Zimmerman was actually in a fight against a person he didn't know with no witnesses as to who started it! You are comparing apples to oranges. And do you believe every allegation you hear about someone? Even if they had pushed an undercover cop who they thought was assaulting a friend? I don't doubt Zimmerman has some serious problems - but I'm also not falling down the slippery slope to hell spawn (=the party line).

We were talking about whether it was justified to shoot someone who threatened you.
All of those people were threatened - by Zimmerman.

Rhea please. You can't gloss over the wide spectrum of "threatening" that encompasses a feeling you could be knocked unconscious. That is kind of shifting the goal posts.

 

[Bronzeage]

How about addressing this.

You were writing that in response to a comment that said, "even if he was a jerk or a bully, why does that make death an appropriate response?"

And I don't think you've said anything that changes the obvious answer away from, "it doesn't. Even if he were a jerk or a bully, death is not the appropriate response to that."

I mean, if you look at Zimmerman's own record(s) of violence, does this mean it was appropriate for someone to have shot and killed him, what, SIX different times now?

1. When he punched the undercover cop, should the cop have shot him?
2. When he smashed his wife's tablet and threatened her, should she have been okay shooting him to death for that?
3. When he threw that drunk woman down on the floor - appropriate for her to get up and kill him?
4. When he smashed his girlfriend's glass table, should she have just shot him instead of leaving?
5. When he shouted at that motorist, "I'm going to kill you!" the guy would have been right to pull out a gun and shoot him dead?
6. And when he threw this wine bottle against the wall at his girlfriend, instead of crying and leaving and getting pulled over by the cops, would it have been justifiable, in your mind, for her to just shoot him dead at home, instead?

I don't get your logic.
Yes. Even if Martin had been a jerk or a bully, yes, the shooting/murder was STILL unjustified.
He's a very lucky man that the rest of the world doesn't feel entitled to what he feels entitled to. Yanno? I mean, YOU KNOW!?

(edited to add, although if that first undercover cop had just shot him for being a "dangerous thug," Trayvon Martin would still be alive today.)

And I don't get your logic that equates all those instances of alleged (and convicted) crime both before and after the Martin case with a situation in which Zimmerman was actually in a fight against a person he didn't know with no witnesses as to who started it! You are comparing apples to oranges. And do you believe every allegation you hear about someone? Even if they had pushed an undercover cop who they thought was assaulting a friend? I don't doubt Zimmerman has some serious problems - but I'm also not falling down the slippery slope to hell spawn (=the party line).

Perhaps if he killed more witnesses, his life would not be so complicated.

 

[Playball40]

Zimmerman killed Trayvon in Florida. What happened in NJ has nothing to do with anything.

There was exactly zero evidence that Trayvon Martin did anything wrong on the night he was killed, and unless you can offer actual factual evidence otherwise, nothing you have to say on the subject will change the fact that Zimmerman killed an innocent teenager and got away with it.

Yeah, we all know that Zimmerman killed Trayvon in Florida. And nothing (even factual evidence that TM may have initiated the physical altercation) can change the fact the GZ killed a teenager and was not indicted for murder. The misinformation link between the many questionable cases of "innocent victims" ending up dead will have to be explained in another thread.

In the mean time - the lessons from this case apply to both sides and it would be a disservice to both to claim otherwise. They apply mostly to would-be Zimmerman's who consider following a suspect with the intent to confront or detain. The take home for someone who might be profiled in a similar situation: that creepy cracker following you in a gated neighborhood might have a gun - so don't take it to the next level and start anything physical; just get to your location as fast as possible and call the police. Trayvon was no Casper Milktoast - he was involved in fights both sanctioned and unsanctioned. He very well could have punched a dude having the audacity to follow him home ("nigga still following me... why you following me... What are you doing here?... Get off me! Get off me!" ). As a teenager who was involved in fights myself (mostly breaking them up) I might have done the same thing.

What factual evidence? ALL we have is Zimmerman claiming such. That is NOT factual evidence.

 

[Playball40]

One wonders whether Judge Zimmerman has any contact with these women who decide not to press charges. Either directly or through representatives.

Who is "judge Zimmerman"?

I'm assuming Daddy Dearest.

 

[RavenSky]

Zimmerman killed Trayvon in Florida. What happened in NJ has nothing to do with anything.

There was exactly zero evidence that Trayvon Martin did anything wrong on the night he was killed, and unless you can offer actual factual evidence otherwise, nothing you have to say on the subject will change the fact that Zimmerman killed an innocent teenager and got away with it.

Yeah, we all know that Zimmerman killed Trayvon in Florida. And nothing (even factual evidence that TM may have initiated the physical altercation) can change the fact the GZ killed a teenager and was not indicted for murder..

There is no factual evidence that Trayvon initiated a physical altercation, and as soon as you start with the "TM may have..." you are speculating - which means it is not a factual statement.

Stop.

 

[Rhea]

How about addressing this.

You were writing that in response to a comment that said, "even if he was a jerk or a bully, why does that make death an appropriate response?"

And I don't think you've said anything that changes the obvious answer away from, "it doesn't. Even if he were a jerk or a bully, death is not the appropriate response to that."

I mean, if you look at Zimmerman's own record(s) of violence, does this mean it was appropriate for someone to have shot and killed him, what, SIX different times now?

1. When he punched the undercover cop, should the cop have shot him?
2. When he smashed his wife's tablet and threatened her, should she have been okay shooting him to death for that?
3. When he threw that drunk woman down on the floor - appropriate for her to get up and kill him?
4. When he smashed his girlfriend's glass table, should she have just shot him instead of leaving?
5. When he shouted at that motorist, "I'm going to kill you!" the guy would have been right to pull out a gun and shoot him dead?
6. And when he threw this wine bottle against the wall at his girlfriend, instead of crying and leaving and getting pulled over by the cops, would it have been justifiable, in your mind, for her to just shoot him dead at home, instead?

I don't get your logic.
Yes. Even if Martin had been a jerk or a bully, yes, the shooting/murder was STILL unjustified.
He's a very lucky man that the rest of the world doesn't feel entitled to what he feels entitled to. Yanno? I mean, YOU KNOW!?

(edited to add, although if that first undercover cop had just shot him for being a "dangerous thug," Trayvon Martin would still be alive today.)

And I don't get your logic that equates all those instances of alleged (and convicted) crime both before and after the Martin case with a situation in which Zimmerman was actually in a fight against a person he didn't know with no witnesses as to who started it! You are comparing apples to oranges. And do you believe every allegation you hear about someone? Even if they had pushed an undercover cop who they thought was assaulting a friend? I don't doubt Zimmerman has some serious problems - but I'm also not falling down the slippery slope to hell spawn (=the party line).

We were talking about whether it was justified to shoot someone who threatened you.
All of those people were threatened - by Zimmerman.

Rhea please. You can't gloss over the wide spectrum of "threatening" that encompasses a feeling you could be knocked unconscious. That is kind of shifting the goal posts.

You can't think of a single one of those examples in which his victim felt the same fear that Zimmerman felt from Martin?
Instead you dodge the main point of the question?

You don't think his ex-wife, who knows he JUST KILLED A MAN would feel a similar level of fear when he is raging against her? Interesting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Street fighting is not a special skill, but I can testify, getting your ass kicked a couple times is an incredibly effective training technique. One of the first things you learn is to get in the first hit(punch, kick, whatever) and make it count. The only goal of a street fight is to make the other person decide the fight was a very bad idea and to make this decision very quickly. Martin seems to have accomplished that much.

Agreed--Martin didn't want to be followed and he used street tactics. Unfortunately it convinced Zimmerman he needed his gun.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Street fighting is not a special skill, but I can testify, getting your ass kicked a couple times is an incredibly effective training technique. One of the first things you learn is to get in the first hit(punch, kick, whatever) and make it count. The only goal of a street fight is to make the other person decide the fight was a very bad idea and to make this decision very quickly. Martin seems to have accomplished that much.

Agreed--Martin didn't want to be followed and he used street tactics.

Is this an admission that you've given up trying to suggest Martin was up to illegal actions?

 

[Arctish]

How about addressing this.

You were writing that in response to a comment that said, "even if he was a jerk or a bully, why does that make death an appropriate response?"

And I don't think you've said anything that changes the obvious answer away from, "it doesn't. Even if he were a jerk or a bully, death is not the appropriate response to that."

I mean, if you look at Zimmerman's own record(s) of violence, does this mean it was appropriate for someone to have shot and killed him, what, SIX different times now?

1. When he punched the undercover cop, should the cop have shot him?
2. When he smashed his wife's tablet and threatened her, should she have been okay shooting him to death for that?
3. When he threw that drunk woman down on the floor - appropriate for her to get up and kill him?
4. When he smashed his girlfriend's glass table, should she have just shot him instead of leaving?
5. When he shouted at that motorist, "I'm going to kill you!" the guy would have been right to pull out a gun and shoot him dead?
6. And when he threw this wine bottle against the wall at his girlfriend, instead of crying and leaving and getting pulled over by the cops, would it have been justifiable, in your mind, for her to just shoot him dead at home, instead?

I don't get your logic.
Yes. Even if Martin had been a jerk or a bully, yes, the shooting/murder was STILL unjustified.
He's a very lucky man that the rest of the world doesn't feel entitled to what he feels entitled to. Yanno? I mean, YOU KNOW!?

(edited to add, although if that first undercover cop had just shot him for being a "dangerous thug," Trayvon Martin would still be alive today.)

And I don't get your logic that equates all those instances of alleged (and convicted) crime both before and after the Martin case with a situation in which Zimmerman was actually in a fight against a person he didn't know with no witnesses as to who started it! You are comparing apples to oranges. And do you believe every allegation you hear about someone? Even if they had pushed an undercover cop who they thought was assaulting a friend? I don't doubt Zimmerman has some serious problems - but I'm also not falling down the slippery slope to hell spawn (=the party line).

I'm sorry to say, it appears you've already slipped a bit on that slope. Zimmerman was told his friend was being questioned outside the bar because the guy was underage. Zimmerman apparently thought the guy doing the questioning was a bouncer but it turned out to be a cop. When Zimmerman threw the cop against a wall, he wasn't preventing an assault, he was committing one.

Yeah, we all know that Zimmerman killed Trayvon in Florida. And nothing (even factual evidence that TM may have initiated the physical altercation) can change the fact the GZ killed a teenager and was not indicted for murder..

There is no factual evidence that Trayvon initiated a physical altercation, and as soon as you start with the "TM may have..." you are speculating - which means it is not a factual statement.

Stop.

We have no direct evidence of who was the first to punch, shove, slap, grope, grab, or tackle the other. We have evidence one of them had shoved, grabbed, and fought others in a not-friendly manner before that night, but that is not proof he did it again on the night in question. But to pretend it is equally likely the other one did the shoving, grabbing, punching, etc. is dishonest. The likelihood strongly favors Zimmerman over Martin, both in terms of personal history and in the role each had at the outset of the conflict: armed pursuer vs. unarmed pursued. "TM may have punched Zimmerman" is not nearly as likely as "Zimmerman may have tackled Martin".

Also, as others have pointed out, under Florida's SYG laws Martin had the right to throw the first punch and no duty to retreat from the creepy ass stranger following him. If anyone is arguing that a resident of the State of Florida and a US citizen exercising that right is at fault if he gets killed by his pursuer, please make it clear that is your argument, because right now it just sounds like blaming the victim and denying blacks the same rights of self defense enjoyed by whites.

 

[Bronzeage]

Street fighting is not a special skill, but I can testify, getting your ass kicked a couple times is an incredibly effective training technique. One of the first things you learn is to get in the first hit(punch, kick, whatever) and make it count. The only goal of a street fight is to make the other person decide the fight was a very bad idea and to make this decision very quickly. Martin seems to have accomplished that much.

Agreed--Martin didn't want to be followed and he used street tactics. Unfortunately it convinced Zimmerman he needed his gun.

Street tactics? Is that the same thing as "stand your ground"?

Zimmerman managed to escape prison because killing Martin eliminated anyone who could have shed light on the reasonable doubt which let him get away with murder.

 

[Medicine Man]

Yeah, we all know that Zimmerman killed Trayvon in Florida. And nothing (even factual evidence that TM may have initiated the physical altercation) can change the fact the GZ killed a teenager and was not indicted for murder..

There is no factual evidence that Trayvon initiated a physical altercation, and as soon as you start with the "TM may have..." you are speculating - which means it is not a factual statement.

Stop.

"conservatives" are HUGE fans o' hypotheticals!!

They've sold more Wars (and, other such money-making schemes) to the World's population....with the scariest-hypotheticals they could dream-up....than ANY other hu$tle they've attempted!!!!

 

[Medicine Man]

Street fighting is not a special skill, but I can testify, getting your ass kicked a couple times is an incredibly effective training technique. One of the first things you learn is to get in the first hit(punch, kick, whatever) and make it count. The only goal of a street fight is to make the other person decide the fight was a very bad idea and to make this decision very quickly. Martin seems to have accomplished that much.

Agreed--Martin didn't want to be followed and he used street tactics. Unfortunately it convinced Zimmerman he needed his gun.​

....Which would have been NO BIG DEAL....if Zimmy had stayed in his van....WHERE HE BELONGED!!!​