The Ways Of The Christian God

[dbz]

The gods featured in the "Bible" need to be distinguished via MS source >= first century CE; verse MSS < the first century CE.

Some MSS sources < the first century CE, feature El and Yahweh as two gods, aka: first-god and second-god.

• Room for Two Gods in the Book of Daniel

• The Pre-Christian Jewish Logos​

The earliest first century CE MSS sources feature first-god bringing the END and second-god on a rescue mission to get the redeemable dead and living on the last train leaving Earth 1.1 before the coming END.

 

[Politesse]

Not mearly as elegant as the Greelks and Gindus.

The Greelks and Gindus had their moments of inelegance as well. Zeus disguising himself as his brother to rape his own daughter and then trying to murder her to cover it up. Krishna demanding that Barbarik cut off his own head because he was jealous of his battlefield prowess, and Barbarik actually going through with it. All peoples, throughout history and across the world, exhibit all the highs and lows of the natural condition in their descriptions of the ineffable. Who would find meaning in, let alone believe, a mythos that did not deal with both love and terror?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

We should always do as god does.

Create a race of creatures called human and destroy all but a few with a flood because you don't like the way it turned out.
Sire a human child with expectation it will grow up to be tortured and executed.
Test a human by commanding him to execute his son.
Make a bet with your arch enemy Satan on a man named Job and rain pain and devastation on him as a test.
Destroy two cites Sodom and Gomorrah because hey displease you.
Turn a man's wife to salt, Lot's wife.

So are we to respect life if we criticize theology that apparently does not respect life?

 

[steve_bank]

That comes down to personal ethics and beliefs.

In the real world I sometimes fail but I try to respect other's beliefs within the bounds of do no physical harm. Essentially staying within thlaw.

The problem of course is Christians who can not respect any other beliefs.

Over here in the USA I know there are Muslim extremists, however ones I have known reate on a human to human basis regardless of belief. I'd say the same of Jews I have known.

 

[dbz]

So are we to respect life if we criticize theology that apparently does not respect life?

What specific element(s) do you mean per "if we criticize theology" ?

The study of God, a god, or gods; and of the truthfulness of religion in general.

• Synonym for: godlore
• Synonym for: religious studies
• A particular belief within a religion.
• An organized method of interpreting spiritual works and beliefs into practical form.

"Voltaire & Religious Intolerance". Online Library of Liberty. "Voltaire's aim was a sincere effort to rid pure religion of its morbid and abominable overgrowths". e.g. the organized rape of young boys (mentally & physical sodomy) found therein.

Once your faith, sir, persuades you to believe what your intelligence declares to be absurd, beware lest you likewise sacrifice your reason in the conduct of your life. In days gone by, there were people who said to us: "You believe in incomprehensible, contradictory and impossible things because we have commanded you to; now then, commit unjust acts because we likewise order you to do so." Nothing could be more convincing. Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. If you do not use the intelligence with which God endowed your mind to resist believing impossibilities, you will not be able to use the sense of injustice which God planted in your heart to resist a command to do evil. Once a single faculty of your soul has been tyrannized, all the other faculties will submit to the same fate. This has been the cause of all the religious crimes that have flooded the earth.

---

Voltaire (1765). Questions sur les miracles (Translation from Norman Lewis Torrey: Les Philosophes. The Philosophers of the Enlightenment and Modern Democracy. Capricorn Books, 1961, pp. 277-8)

• Alternative translation: "Whoever is able to make you absurd, is able to make you unjust."
• Widely used paraphrase: "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities".

 

[dbz]

The problem of course is Christians who can not respect any other beliefs.

The problem is irreligious or religious Zealots who can not respect any other beliefs (or lack of belief) or critique of said Zealot's belief!

Even with no theology .. homo sapiens (or otters) are still going to be absurd!

• "Go God Go XII". Wikipedia.

Wry critique of irreligious intolerance @time:00:07:34

 

[Unknown Soldier]

So are we to respect life if we criticize theology that apparently does not respect life?

What specific element(s) do you mean per "if we criticize theology" ?

I'm referring to theologians rationalizing Yahweh's engaging in war, genocides, persecutions, executions, and enslavement. If Yahweh was wrong for those acts, are we wrong if we commit the same acts? For example, do we err morally if we execute convicted murderers? Is war immoral?

 

[steve_bank]

dbz

Zealots are not exclusive to religion.

There are zealots on the political left and right. Sports zealots, to the point of violence. Eurpean scooter zealot violence is well known.

Cultural zealots.

 

[dbz]

If God only blessed that which is ideal, most human beings, including Christians, would never experience blessing. The God who sends rain on the just and the unjust, however, is willing to shower blessing even where selectively conservative Christians would withhold it if it were up to them.

---

McGrath (16 January 2023). "God's Ideal for Human Flourishing". Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath.

 

[Juma]

That comes down to personal ethics and beliefs.

In the real world I sometimes fail but I try to respect other's beliefs within the bounds of do no physical harm. Essentially staying within thlaw.

The problem of course is Christians who can not respect any other beliefs.

Over here in the USA I know there are Muslim extremists, however ones I have known reate on a human to human basis regardless of belief. I'd say the same of Jews I have known.

You have some funny ideas about God.

They're really not funny, exactly.

But I know where they come from. Devout Christian people make all these claims, although they phrase them differently.
Tom

Then they have funny ideas, too. I'm not going to use someone else's unqualified reading of the Bible as a personal moral guide.

"unqualified"?
How are you "qualified" to say that others reading of the bible is "unqualified"?

And why do you attack Steve when you agree that what he describes is a bad basis of a worldview/moral?

or do you have some other hidden reason for calling it "unqualified"?

 

[Politesse]

And why do you attack Steve when you agree that what he describes is a bad basis of a worldview/moral?

By "attack", you mean that I said his ideas were funny?

 

[Juma]

And why do you attack Steve when you agree that what he describes is a bad basis of a worldview/moral?

By "attack", you mean that I said his ideas were funny?

then explain what you meant by "funny". I read it as "wierd".

 

[lostone]

Not much to do with a thread like this, really. If someone were making an earnest, good-faith argument, I could ask critical questions about what they are claiming, why, and on what basis.

But of course, this thread is not in good faith - Steve is not, in fact, arguing for any of these positions, and neither is able to nor would want to defend them. The whole point is to go "Gosh, that sounds awful, sure am glad I'm already an atheist!"

OTOH, this interpretation is likely a vital part of why Steve is an atheist, and is based on ideas that are an integral part of the Christian faith.

 

[Politesse]

Not much to do with a thread like this, really. If someone were making an earnest, good-faith argument, I could ask critical questions about what they are claiming, why, and on what basis.

But of course, this thread is not in good faith - Steve is not, in fact, arguing for any of these positions, and neither is able to nor would want to defend them. The whole point is to go "Gosh, that sounds awful, sure am glad I'm already an atheist!"

OTOH, this interpretation is likely a vital part of why Steve is an atheist, and is based on ideas that are an integral part of the Christian faith.

I've never even met a Christian that would agree with the first sentence of the OP, to my knowledge, and I know a great many Christians from a great many traditions. What branch of Christianity holds that "We should always do as God does"? The Bible certainly never suggests such a rule. A human is not a god, and just as a question of logic, cannot act as a god does whether they choose to do so or not. It would be like an elementary teacher telling their students to "do exactly as they do"... until it is time to teach a lesson on mathematics, issue a hall pass, assign grades, run a fire drill, conference with parents, write state assessments, participate in a IEP process, or attend a board meeting.

There are some adjurations to imitate Christ, but that isn't quite the same thing.

 

[lostone]

Not much to do with a thread like this, really. If someone were making an earnest, good-faith argument, I could ask critical questions about what they are claiming, why, and on what basis.

But of course, this thread is not in good faith - Steve is not, in fact, arguing for any of these positions, and neither is able to nor would want to defend them. The whole point is to go "Gosh, that sounds awful, sure am glad I'm already an atheist!"

OTOH, this interpretation is likely a vital part of why Steve is an atheist, and is based on ideas that are an integral part of the Christian faith.

I've never even met a Christian that would agree with the first sentence of the OP, to my knowledge, and I know a great many Christians from a great many traditions. What branch of Christianity holds that "We should always do as God does"? The Bible certainly never suggests such a rule. A human is not a god, and just as a question of logic, cannot act as a god does whether they choose to do so or not. It would be like an elementary teacher telling their students to "do exactly as they do"... until it is time to teach a lesson on mathematics, issue a hall pass, assign grades, run a fire drill, conference with parents, write state assessments, participate in a IEP process, or attend a board meeting.

There are some adjurations to imitate Christ, but that isn't quite the same thing.

I think Steve's meaning was quite clear that he meant we should act morally, just like God presumably expects us to act, and does so himself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What is the Christian God? We know who Yahweh is, but the "Christian God" is an odd polymorphism of a babyface Jesus and angry, all-spiteful, old school Overlord. Overall, Christianity seems to be more of a brand who's main goal in life is to expand the brand. The basis for being in the brand is eternal salvation... which is a promise made well after the initial product launch. And there also seems to be a container of white-out, which allows brand adherents to remove some of the previous holy stuff. All of this comes from four remasters of the telling of when the brand's alleged spokesperson comes to Earth, born of a virgin, does nothing for decades, and then reappears before allegedly dying because he is just too controversial. The remainder of the New Coke Testament is just a bunch of blather as to why one should like the newer brand. Then it finishes up with a return to the older, and more reliable in the movie theater, formula of angry and spiteful God.

I think people take the Christian God for granted, but honestly, I have no idea what the Christian God is actually supposed to be. Seems more like a Madlib deity that allows its adherents to choose their own beliefs, extrapolate that to their brand, and then demand everyone follow their lead. This could explain the five trillion splinters of the Christian "faith".

 

[TomC]

What is the Christian God?

This is quite the crux of the problem.

It's obvious to me that the Christian God is a fictional character type with multiple iterations. Genesis God is very different from Exodus God and it all continues through the centuries of increasing human moral and ethical sophistication to the Christ of Paul's Epistles. Christ doesn't resemble the God of Noah or Abraham or Moses in much of anything, except being included in The Bible.

This leaves us with a book making it easy to Create a God in our own, personal, image. Anyone can support whatever ethical code they prefer with a statement that begins with "God says..." and they'll be correct. From genocide, tyranny, and slavery to communitarianism and medical missions and non-judgemental comradery.
Pretty much anything, The Bible is a moral smorgasbord.
Tom

ETA ~Christianity is like a moral Rorschach test. "What do you see here?" ~

 

[bilby]

The Christian/Islamic God is a tri-polar nutcase.

Or perhaps more accurately, is a kind of Cambrian Explosion of different Gods derived from the same root stock, that have filled the many thousands of mental niches left vacant by the near extinction of polytheism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The Christian/Islamic God is a tri-polar nutcase.

Or perhaps more accurately, is a kind of Cambrian Explosion of different Gods derived from the same root stock, that have filled the many thousands of mental niches left vacant by the near extinction of polytheism.

Well that has to have been done...

*looks online*

Yup, here it is. I'm assuming there is error here and there in this. Probably could do a chart just for the middle east / persia.

 

[steve_bank]

Not much to do with a thread like this, really. If someone were making an earnest, good-faith argument, I could ask critical questions about what they are claiming, why, and on what basis.

But of course, this thread is not in good faith - Steve is not, in fact, arguing for any of these positions, and neither is able to nor would want to defend them. The whole point is to go "Gosh, that sounds awful, sure am glad I'm already an atheist!"

OTOH, this interpretation is likely a vital part of why Steve is an atheist, and is based on ideas that are an integral part of the Christian faith.

I've never even met a Christian that would agree with the first sentence of the OP, to my knowledge, and I know a great many Christians from a great many traditions. What branch of Christianity holds that "We should always do as God does"? The Bible certainly never suggests such a rule. A human is not a god, and just as a question of logic, cannot act as a god does whether they choose to do so or not. It would be like an elementary teacher telling their students to "do exactly as they do"... until it is time to teach a lesson on mathematics, issue a hall pass, assign grades, run a fire drill, conference with parents, write state assessments, participate in a IEP process, or attend a board meeting.

There are some adjurations to imitate Christ, but that isn't quite the same thing.

I think Steve's meaning was quite clear that he meant we should act morally, just like God presumably expects us to act, and does so himself.

If you are referring to me, WTF?

I believe at any point morality s a cultural consensus.

An example is the slow shift to majority support for gay rights. In spite of stiff resistance from conservatives.

Debate on ethics and morality goes far back in recorded history.

One can choose right and wrong based on knowledge and experience.

The obvious are don't steal, lie, or murder. Enlightened self interest? We'd end up in a debate on philosophy.

I do not think any absolute morality exists. Certainly not from a collection of od b=wrings by unknown ancient authors.

In different forms the common tread is usally the Golden Rule, treat oters like you wnat to be treated.

For Chrtians do you wnat to be treated in kind? Christans demonize others who do not belive as they do. Forced conversions and cultural genocide. Native Americans are still dealing with the consequences of Chrtian cultural genocide.